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My Arc suddenly dropped from level 52 to 28???

  • Thread starter DeletedUser27184
  • Start date

Algona

Well-Known Member
I know a lot of players who play once or twice a day. They come and collect thier FP/goods, put their FP into their own GB's. Allowing other players to snipe the rewards. They don't try to snipe other GB's. They don't care. They play their city, slowly, and with small investment of their time.
Those players don't have Arcs or their Arc's is level 5 a lot of times, because the Arc don't help them. They don't level it.

Yape, like the traz and CF you have to use the Arc in order for it to be useful.
Heh. I asked for viable strategies.

Ever notice that self levelers tend to be in the bottom of their hood? That they also have far fewer GBs with lower levels then their hoodies? Thiri cities are smaller, with older Era mundane buildings?

There are some successful self levelers, Ardak and Ylisaveta are a couple posters I know in my worlds. Before he left us Ardak and I talked a lot about the theory of self leveling, I'm trying it in my startup to see if it can work for a non Diamond buyer.

My experience so far (the experiment is only a couple months old, i plan to try it through the end of the year at least) self leveling is a suboptimal strategy. This conclusion is also supported by my experience of what I've seen since the hood rebalance in two different worlds. Might be an interesting topic for a thread?
 

qaccy

Well-Known Member
That's not how the burden of proof works in proving a negative. I don't believe it is overpowered. That's your position. You must prove to me that it is. I don't have to prove why it isn't. It's almost impossible to prove a negative, even though it's not on me to prove anything.
I've provided a fair bit of evidence, based on player trends and the overall state of the game, that strongly indicates that the Arc has had an impact on the game that's wholly unmatched by any other GB. Alcatraz and Chateau come close only in terms of the base bonus, as they're both powerful effects as well. However, Alcatraz only gains 1 extra unit per level rather than 5 and Chateau's bonus goes up 5% rather than 50%, which is about what they'd have to be in order to match the Arc's impact. You're just not choosing to accept the evidence I'm providing, that's all.

By the way... [the Oracle] wasn't an exploit. It wasn't a bug. It worked exactly as designed. The problem was on Inno's end, not the players'.
It turned into an exploit because players intentionally sold the GB and rebuilt it in order to continually reap the rewards. In the simplest terms, exploiting is taking advantage of something or someone. When it comes to gaming, that usually means something that's unintentionally (usually by oversight) designed in a way that's more beneficial to players than it should be. Getting rewards from a GB, correct, that's the design of the game. The Oracle giving the rewards it did was an oversight, and the player's reaction to it was exploitive. Pretty cut and dry here, and that's ultimately what led to what happened. If so many players didn't take advantage (read: exploit) the Oracle's initial design, this thread would not exist.

I think the takeaway here is that your definitions of 'exploit' and 'overpowered' differ from my own, perhaps. What constitutes these things to you?
 

Salsuero

Well-Known Member
I've provided a fair bit of evidence, based on player trends and the overall state of the game, that strongly indicates that the Arc has had an impact on the game that's wholly unmatched by any other GB. Alcatraz and Chateau come close only in terms of the base bonus, as they're both powerful effects as well. However, Alcatraz only gains 1 extra unit per level rather than 5 and Chateau's bonus goes up 5% rather than 50%, which is about what they'd have to be in order to match the Arc's impact. You're just not choosing to accept the evidence I'm providing, that's all.
Opinion ≠ Evidence

You haven't provided any "evidence" that the Arc is overpowered. You've only stated why you believe it to be true based on your own interpretation of the situation. This is what is referred to as "opinion". Opinions do not serve as evidence.

It turned into an exploit because players intentionally sold the GB and rebuilt it in order to continually reap the rewards. In the simplest terms, exploiting is taking advantage of something or someone. When it comes to gaming, that usually means something that's unintentionally (usually by oversight) designed in a way that's more beneficial to players than it should be. Getting rewards from a GB, correct, that's the design of the game. The Oracle giving the rewards it did was an oversight, and the player's reaction to it was exploitive. Pretty cut and dry here, and that's ultimately what led to what happened. If so many players didn't take advantage (read: exploit) the Oracle's initial design, this thread would not exist.
If no one had complained, nothing would have been done. It would have been awful for the game, but if NO ONE had complained... then it would not be considered abuse and it was wholly within the rules to do what was done. Maybe the developers decide on their own to change it down the line if they feel it isn't what they intended. But until that point, it would not have been an exploit. Just bad design. An exploit implies doing something that was never intended. Using an Arc to boost bonuses... intended. Collecting prints to construct GBs... intended. Ability to delete a GB once built... intended. Semantics at best.

One does not blame the player for using a system, staying 100% within the rules, of abuse simply because a developer fails to properly test something. "Staying 100% within the rules" is the key to my perspective. It was not against the rules to do anything that was done. The developers released an imperfect GB and the players used it as it was. That is not abuse. There isn't anything in the rules that would tell a player... don't go after something if you "think" the reward is too high... just tell us the reward is too high and we'll lower it. Maybe it is incumbent on players to simply "realize" that this isn't what is intended and use some simple "game ethics" -- that's fair. I just don't like the word exploit in this case. Perhaps that's simply a "me thing".

Now... a bunch of players recognized that this was probably unintended and the adjustment was made. Fine. I'm not mad at that. What I am mad at is that they chose to hurt ALL of the Oracle owners in doing so when there were in fact TWO methods to apply this "fix". They chose the method that would impact ALL players instead of just the ones who could take advantage of the issue at hand. And then, rather than bothering to research the impact of their mistake, they again haphazardly applied a "fix" which was wholly unnecessary. Those are my issues with what has happened.

I think the takeaway here is that your definitions of 'exploit' and 'overpowered' differ from my own, perhaps. What constitutes these things to you?
Clearly. I've already explained why this was not an exploit based on my particular "definition" within this context. Overpowered: I don't think this is something that can be defined to a specific point in this context because it can be for a variety of reasons. However, you are correct... I do not define overpowered in the way you do if your definition includes the Arc (or Rogues, for another example).
 
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DeletedUser27184

Heh. I asked for viable strategies.

Ever notice that self levelers tend to be in the bottom of their hood? That they also have far fewer GBs with lower levels then their hoodies? Thiri cities are smaller, with older Era mundane buildings?

There are some successful self levelers, Ardak and Ylisaveta are a couple posters I know in my worlds. Before he left us Ardak and I talked a lot about the theory of self leveling, I'm trying it in my startup to see if it can work for a non Diamond buyer.

My experience so far (the experiment is only a couple months old, i plan to try it through the end of the year at least) self leveling is a suboptimal strategy. This conclusion is also supported by my experience of what I've seen since the hood rebalance in two different worlds. Might be an interesting topic for a thread?
I agree that self leveling is sub optimal. Its doable, but not in the way most of the players (who self level) do. And the evidence is easy, you just check their city, and it looks small, and all you said above.

I have in my guild a person who self level quite efficiently. Which is hard but doable. Still, his main problem now is BP's. He is stuck around level 20 with his GB's, because he lack the BP's you get as rewards.
 

DeletedUser13838

Heh. I asked for viable strategies.

Ever notice that self levelers tend to be in the bottom of their hood? That they also have far fewer GBs with lower levels then their hoodies? Thiri cities are smaller, with older Era mundane buildings?

There are some successful self levelers, Ardak and Ylisaveta are a couple posters I know in my worlds. Before he left us Ardak and I talked a lot about the theory of self leveling, I'm trying it in my startup to see if it can work for a non Diamond buyer.

My experience so far (the experiment is only a couple months old, i plan to try it through the end of the year at least) self leveling is a suboptimal strategy. This conclusion is also supported by my experience of what I've seen since the hood rebalance in two different worlds. Might be an interesting topic for a thread?
Self leveling becomes worthwhile once your GBs hit a certain level and it also depends on your arc and how what your basic strategy is. If you aren't earning any GB rewards it doesn't matter.
 

Darkbox v2

Active Member
False statement, you obviously have no idea of what it will take to get a any GB up to level 150? let alone 300.
My point is that it does not matter the GB, take it high enough and there will be reason for people to complain about it being "unfair" or "overpowered".

The Arc was designed to give reward boosts and it does just that. You have to take it to level 80+ for it to become "overpowered" (whatever that mean) for some people.

Unless you cap GBs levels, they will all get to that point one way or the other.
 
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Algona

Well-Known Member
Self leveling becomes worthwhile once your GBs hit a certain level and it also depends on your arc and how what your basic strategy is. If you aren't earning any GB rewards it doesn't matter.
I sure would like to meet one person who has pursued self leveling as a long term strategy from early in the game through late in the game who has managed to get multiple GBs into the mid (say 30+) levels. How;d they manage it?

Still, his main problem now is BP's. He is stuck around level 20 with his GB's, because he lack the BP's you get as rewards.
That is my concern with self leveling and the wall Ardak ran into. I'm guessing I'll eventually have to use a hybtid approach of grabbing Rewards from other GBs to get BPs for the GBsa I want to keep leveling. And surprise, surprise! Arc will help there as well....

My point is that it does not matter the GB, take it high enough and there will be reason for people to complain about it being "unfair" or "overpowered".

The Arc was designed to give reward boosts and it does just that. You have to take it to level 80+ for it to become "overpowered" (whatever that mean) for some people.

Unless you cap GBs levels, they will all get to that point one way or the other.
Oh, sure. Take out Arc and it's a matter of months before a GB reaches problematic levels. With Arc? Days. We've seen in this thread folk who were leveling GBs other then Oracle multiple times a day. Arc driven.

If it were difficult to run Arc up to level 80 then that would mitihate the problem a small amount.. But it's a feedback loop with other Arc holders making that process faster. So instead of taking a long time that goes fast as well.

And of course once Arc gets there any other GBs will follow quickly. More problematic GBs (Chateau!) ever faster.

The Arc was designed
by the same folk who brought you the Oracle Debacle and the other piss poor designs that were deployed over the last few years.

Don't get me wrong, I like what INNO does for the most part. I like this game. But Arc warps every part of the game.

If that;s the game INNO and the players want, well, hell, I don't mind. My Arc is there.
 

Darkbox v2

Active Member
.... by the same folk who brought you the Oracle Debacle and the other piss poor designs that were deployed over the last few years.
That just comforts me in my position, there is not such thing as overpowered GB :D:D

What you loose on the "piss poor designs" you compensate it in others. I would agree with the "overpowered" notion if anyone could demonstrate that the Arc is doing "over" what it is supposed to do, or that the Notre Dame is doing "under" what it was designed to do.

They gave us toys, we play with them the way WE want, not the way they thought/dreamed we would.
 

DeletedUser13838

I sure would like to meet one person who has pursued self leveling as a long term strategy from early in the game through late in the game who has managed to get multiple GBs into the mid (say 30+) levels. How;d they manage it?]

That is my concern with self leveling and the wall Ardak ran into. I'm guessing I'll eventually have to use a hybtid approach of grabbing Rewards from other GBs to get BPs for the GBsa I want to keep leveling. And surprise, surprise! Arc will help there as well....
Yeah, I don't think it's a worthwhile strategy from the get go. As you say, bps become the key stumbling point and you really need an arc to get them. You'll probably get as many CDM bps as you need if you sit in LMA and if you're not able to get GB rewards it really doesn't matter if you self level or not. Getting arc bps is a much tougher problem. It cost me a ton of fps to get over the hump and now I have more arc bps than I'll ever use. Unlike LLQ I don't plan to level my arc past 10,000. :)
 

LacLongQuan

Well-Known Member
My point is that it does not matter the GB, take it high enough and there will be reason for people to complain about it being "unfair" or "overpowered".

The Arc was designed to give reward boosts and it does just that. You have to take it to level 80+ for it to become "overpowered" (whatever that mean) for some people.

Unless you cap GBs levels, they will all get to that point one way or the other.
I comes to the point around level 150, regardless of your Arc level, the exponential increase of the point required to level in any GB will outmatch the prizes yielded for that level, and the gap for you have to cover just to get 1st/2nd lock not to mention the 2nd-3rd gap lock will be huge, there you hit the brick wall, so the game itself already has the 'cap' mechanism in all GB. Of course you still can get your GB pass 150 and beyond but that will require your will/times/fp capital to get there and hope you don't go broke doing that.
Just an idea of how much it costs:
Using guild threads trade: http://prntscr.com/ha2rdf
Self point: http://prntscr.com/ha2s3l
 
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Meat Butcher

Active Member
I comes to the point around level 150, regardless of your Arc level, the exponential increase of the point required to level in any GB will outmatch the prizes yielded for that level, and the gap for you have to cover just to get 1st/2nd lock not to mention the 2nd-3rd gap lock will be huge, there you hit the brick wall, so the game itself already has the 'cap' mechanism in all GB. Of course you still can get your GB pass 150 and beyond but that will require your will/times/fp capital to get there and hope you don't go broke doing that.
Just an idea of how much it costs:
Using guild threads trade: http://prntscr.com/ha2rdf
Self point: http://prntscr.com/ha2s3l
Well said.
I saw Neutral Fool drop 14k on her Arc (I think it was level 144) and it shows how difficult it will be to push anything past 150.
That amount of FP's can certainly be used on another lower GB to bring it up quite a few levels. Personally I would not want a cap and would rather have the option to keep pushing a GB higher if I choose.