Is Hagia Sofia worth it for FP?

[DeletedUser13838]

assuming someone put down a 3fp/9sq event building instead of putting down hagia... by the time hagia broke even at 24months..
that 3fp/9sq event building would be +2190FP's

Unless you have 5 of them this isn't a question. But the problem is that these buildings don't get better. The Hagia at level 25 generates as many as 5 of those buildings and depending can take much less than a year to pay for itself. So yes there is an initial cost but unless you're not playing for the long term (in which case none of this matters), the overall payback is far superior than 5 event buildings.

The same holds for cape, Inno, etc - initial investment required to get fp production to equal event buildings but eventually those buildings are far superior to any event building.

 

[DeletedUser30900]

my chart does not include break even comparison to FP buildings that need no investment...

assuming someone put down a 3fp/9sq event building instead of putting down hagia... by the time hagia broke even at 24months..
that 3fp/9sq event building would be +2190FP's

it would take hagia a looooooong time to close that gap...
feel free to do some math and let us know how long.

(and ofcourse over the 2+ years that person A is continuing to invest in and wait for in hagia to break even... ..person B would continue to fill that space with Fp buildings that take zero investment, and would be even farther ahead than 2190.)

Hagia in the perfect situation only needs 1 road connection. Event buildings... probably not if you try to cover all the place Hagia takes.

 

[Emberguard]

my chart does not include break even comparison to FP buildings that need no investment...

assuming someone put down a 3fp/9sq event building instead of putting down hagia... by the time hagia broke even at 24months..
that 3fp/9sq event building would be +2190FP's

it would take hagia a looooooong time to close that gap...
feel free to do some math and let us know how long.

There's something you're not factoring in here:
(1) you can't go through the tech tree and complete events without increasing your FP income beyond what event buildings gives out unless you intend to start dumping money on the game - and a lot of it. The rate of FP increase is just too much to avoid the Hagia completely as you advance through the game unless you intend to build advanced GBs

(2) Return of investment - GBs get back FPs from contributions. So it costs a lot less then 2,190 as long as you do swaps. They also get medals which funds more space for those event buildings

(3) your argument only holds weight if you can keep using the FPs when you avoid the FP generating GBs. No point in building up event buildings in place of GBs and then find you have nowhere to use the FPs generated because you don't have a GB to place them on, and you don't have the goods necessary to unlock the next tech. All GBs take a long time to give back their investment if you're focusing on them in a vacuum environment where only they exist independent of all other GBs

(4) multiple sources are more efficient then a single source. The return of investment on something like the cape would come around a lot faster if you swap between lvl'ing it and other FP GBs such as the Hagia

 

[Emberguard]

are you playing from a 2nd account with a different name? the way you are writing got me curious too know who i was dealing with and searched for your city and the only one i found was a BA city with a level 1 GB.

Same name, different server

My diamond world (yes, I spent money. There's other stuff in inventory waiting for me to get through the ages to put them down - and yes I intend to get a Hagia later on for this city)

Spoiler

My other world - very little diamond usage. Just the once off purchase for the second pillar of heroes.

Spoiler

the hagia builder would have to keep investing more FP's in hagia to keep pace with the ever improving event buildings and keep waiting for hagia to break even (again) and catch the event buildings.
it would be a long game of constantly playing catch-up that would take a hagia builder 2-3 years to accomplish.

if a person chose to play that game of catch-up..it would also distract them from building/leveling other Fp buildings and push back the break even dates of those other fp buildings

Except you'd first have to acquire those events. Unless you're spending money (and a lot of it) then you'd be wasting your time trying to avoid FP GBs waiting for events to cover the same amount. It'd take 2-3 years of catchup just to acquire the events and their upgrades in the first place.

And even if you got those events, they don't scale too well in other areas without continuously getting more and more one-up/reno kits. So you're limited in how much you rely on these events for all your needs unless you have those kits to keep them current (though they are very handy)

You said you could just replace events by deleting one for another - but in that case you'd be starting again from scratch if those events then get upgrades later on. And for something like the graveyard it'd be another 3 years of playing catch up if the next upgrade adds something that's not just more happiness. For other events at least two years to catch up with both the set and the upgrade unless you're lucky or spend money.

i appreciate your complex analysis but i dont think its that complicated.
who's talking about not building any GB's? advancing through tech? i honestly dont see how that connects to this thread/discussion

Your point against the Hagia really boils down to whether you want to lvl it up in a vacuum. If you're lvl'ing in a vacuum then no GB will ever be worth lvling. (investment of FPs into GB vs amount gained from event buildings and no investment). That same argument could be said for just about every GB out there where there is overlap with event buildings. Anything that gives Goods, FPs, Attack, Defence, Coins, Supplies, Happiness. Basically the majority of all GBs.

Yes you never brought up not having other GBs, but if an event being good is enough to make a FP GB that scales up redundant, what makes any other GB any better then an event?

You don't need to lvl up the Hagia far for it to compete with event building efficiency. Lvl 14 is sufficient for that. Fact is your FPs are worthless until invested it's just a matter of where you prefer to invest. If you want to get it to Lvl 71 you'd have to first get a high lvl'd Arc anyway. In which case it's a moot point: your Hagia is already free or very cheap for lvling it up and could potentially be done just as fast as waiting for the next event

you might want to break that down. the way you are explaining does not make any sense to me and my understanding of how GB leveling works. .. you also made a similar comment earlier maybe someone else can explain what you're trying to say.

You want to increase your FPs. Lvling up a single GB will cost X amount of FPs. For example, with 600 FPs I can either get a single FP increase from one GB, or I can spread it over two GBs and get 3 FPs increase for the same investment. Thus it is faster to switch which GB you lvl up depending on the current lvl and amount of increase compared to your other GBs then to solely focus on a single GB. Because then your increase in FP income will be able to be used to lvl up faster depending on your method of investment.



The biggest factor about the Hagias value in when would be the best time to build: Are you planning on building advanced GBs? Or are you going to go through the game with current age stuff? This will determine whether it's best to get it early or wait until you have a lvl 80 arc. The other thing is what do you value in your city? If you don't care about FP production and already have a lot of Happiness then a Hagia probably isn't going to make much of a difference one way or the other. But if you want to chase events, aren't getting any advanced GBs and are struggling to complete the spend X FPs requirements then it may be worth getting a Hagia to lvl 10 just for getting those events even if later on it's torn down

 

[DeletedUser]

my point is that hagia is an investment. a person is spending fp's in the hopes of 1 day making fp's.
that investment realistically takes 2-3 years to mature. most people dont play the game that long, so their investment will never mature, so they will never actually make FP's.
while a person is waiting for that investment to mature, hagia is taking up space in their city so they are also losing fp's and other production and they are also losing compound investment income from all that lost production.

Your point is ridiculous simply because you have to spend the bar FPs somewhere or your FP production there stops. So even if you use bar FPs to completely level the Hagia yourself, it has a return on investment immediately, not 2 years down the line. The money in your pocket or bank account can grow no matter how much you have, but the bar FPs freeze whenever you hit 10.

 

[DeletedUser31440]

start a 2-3 year journey of investing in hagia to get it to 8-12fp

How slowly do you level your GB's? Hagia to level 14 (8 fp's/day) without any help is 5,506 fp's, hopefully you can manage to invest 50 fp's a day into it putting it at level 14 in 111 days, without any help.

 

[DeletedUser31440]

we are talking about break even. now at 8fp/day add the 688 days to return 5506fp's invested.
799 days. to get to zero.
in those 799 days, the event buildings would be +6392

Be more clear in your word usage then:

start a 2-3 year journey of investing in hagia to get it to 8-12fp where it FINALLY ties the FP output

This reads as you spent 2-3 years to get it to that level, not you would be breaking even at that point.

 

[DeletedUser]

lol.
what i think is ridiculous os that you've been playing for 3+ years and dont have a GB higher than level 23.
you've apparently never fully built a GB, yet you come and try to give advice about leveling GB's.
that fits my definition of ridiculous.

LOL yourself. What I haven't done is hyper-level a GB. I have many GBs at or above level 10. Considering that it seems that there is no upper limit on GB levels, can any GB be considered "fully built"? And why would you have to hyper-level a GB to understand about making decisions about building GBs? For one thing, it's not the complicated rocket science that you and some others make it out to be. I certainly can make excellent decisions about it without having to do calculations about two years down the road, especially when the calculations depend on specious assumptions and are skewed by a biased perspective on the mechanics. You try to speak as an expert and yet ignore/downplay anything that contradicts your calculations.

Here's a simple example. Every Hagia I have was built and leveled with bar FPs, either directly or through swaps. Those bar FP had to go somewhere or bar FP production would have stopped. Now I receive FP income every day from my Hagias. Any other use of those FP would have had no guaranteed return at all, especially since you rarely if ever can lock a decent reward spot solely through bar FP. And that's just one facet of the issue that you and others who share your viewpoint completely ignore.

 

[DeletedUser33036]

I think the Hagia is worth building to level 10, and then taking it through its profit levels once you have a high level arc.

 

[DeletedUser]

thats true the journey of learning about building GB's is probably endless. we could debate what fully built means. i think most long term players would say that it would include taking a GB all the was through its profit levels and experiencing what is on the other side.
BECAUSE when people build a GB to those levels, there are a lot of important things that people learn and come to understand about building GB's. [learn from experience, not from forum reading]. so by learning[from experience] all the things there are to learn about building a particular GB, a person would have 'fully built' that GB.
thats just my opinon ofcourse. to each their own.
would you consider that someone who just put a GB in stix and built it out of stix to level 1, to have fully built a GB? probably not.

Ah, I see. The "It's a Jeep Thing" argument. Even more ridiculous in the context of whether a GB is worth building. Your mindset is exactly how the Arc has pretty much ruined this game. And nice straw man, throwing in another ridiculous comment about a level one GB, which no one else has argued.

 

[DeletedUser31440]

I've got Hagia built in my mains, there wasn't any super in-depth calcs for it. I wanted more daily fp's, less aid events wasted, and Traz alone wouldn't be enough happy to take Inno up.

 

[Emberguard]

thats true the journey of learning about building GB's is probably endless. we could debate what fully built means. i think most long term players would say that it would include taking a GB all the was through its profit levels and experiencing what is on the other side.
BECAUSE when people build a GB to those levels, there are a lot of important things that people learn and come to understand about building GB's. [learn from experience, not from forum reading]. so by learning[from experience] all the things there are to learn about building a particular GB, a person would have 'fully built' that GB.
thats just my opinon ofcourse. to each their own.
would you consider that someone who just put a GB in stix and built it out of stix to level 1, to have fully built a GB? probably not.

I would have considered lvl 10 "fully built" because that's what the base set of BPs allow and was originally the roof of GB lvls.

Either that or whatever the max lvl for a GB is before it's impossible to increase its stats. But that appears to only be possible for certain GBs. Other GBs we either haven't reached a stage where we can tell if we've reached the max, or although slow are visibly increasing slowly

 

[DeletedUser29726]

Ah, I see. The "It's a Jeep Thing" argument. Even more ridiculous in the context of whether a GB is worth building. Your mindset is exactly how the Arc has pretty much ruined this game. And nice straw man, throwing in another ridiculous comment about a level one GB, which no one else has argued.

Technically, Arc is in the Hagia's corner as making it worthwhile. How my thinking on it has evolved over time:

1) When i started FP buildings were hard to come by. SoK was the only one and they didn't rain from the sky during events, rather you might get 2 or 3 per event and 3 events per year. In this environment I built my first hagia with the intention of taking it to at least level 5 or so because that wouldn't take too long to payoff and to think about the 'space' cost of a FP wasn't really a thing at the time. I considered it a borderline building. It was a hard decision.

2) As events got crazy I came to regret building it, but it was far enough along that it seemed wrong to delete it. So it was an elephant in my city and apart from worlds where I planned to camp and just needed somewhere to dump FP, I didn't build it in new worlds anymore. The analysis of levelling it to 10 to justify it for me was that the return was *way* too long when i had other priorities. And at lower levels it was taking up *way* too much space for *just* a few FP. I considered it a bad idea to build, but not catastrophic.

3) Arc came along and Hagia became added to my list of buildings to level *eventually*. I still wouldn't recommend it in terms of a building to build early. There's so many other places that could use those FP in more impactful manners. Especially with the continued evolution of Forge of Events and Expedition and Daily Challenges and Taverns all throwing more FP at you. The relative impact of it is little and not terribly unique, the time to payoff of it is relatively high, and it takes away flexibility in terms of eras where perhaps that space would be better used on something else in your layouts. BUT at least once you have a high enough arc you can level it to the point where it *does* become impactful in an efficient manner (somewhere around level 50).

 

[Emberguard]

you're basically the equivalent of a basketball coach who doesn't use or teach the 3 point shot, because 'it ruined the game'.
it didn't ruin the game. it changed the game. you are failing to adapt and are clinging to a different version of the game that existed years ago.

your mindset is ruining this game for the current players and new members who are trying to learn and understand it, and come here and end up listening to people preach FOE 2015-2016.

I love the idea of the Arc. It's a easily scalable income. That's its entire purpose. While I disagree with Stephs notion that the Arc ruined the game, it absolutely destroyed any chance of changing certain aspects of the game and lessens the leeway of balance in other areas. People have come up with some pretty neat proposals every now and then but the Arc prevents some of them from ever being viable. Maybe it should have had a separate investment market that only the Arc can invest in when it comes to the FP portion. But then again perhaps the whole reason it works the way it does is specifically to allow players to hyper lvl easier

The thing is though, just because the Arc exists doesn't mean players have to get it to lvl 80, or have to get it prior to The Future. It's a pretty intense investment and if you haven't got at least 30 FPs daily for the first 10-15 lvls you're going to struggle to get anywhere in a reasonable amount of time. By the time you get above that you'd really want more like 50-80 FPs daily not including FP packs. Once you get to Lvl 30 you're probably going to want to still have the bulk of your FP packs if you're intending to speed lvl your Arc through 30-70 to increase its efficiency

The question of this thread is "is Hagia worth building?". The answer depends on how much space you want to put aside for FP income and your current/future game needs. We have more then enough space for it along with the other GBs - Just not everyone would want to build a bunch of GBs. And of those that do they have different priorities. Advanced GB builders have different priorities and needs then current age GB builders. Those wanting to race through the game with max FP income have a different priority again.

 

[DeletedUser]

people come to the forum to learn and understand the game [that currently exists, that they and everyone else is currently playing.] so they can make better informed decisions about what to do with their game.
they dont come to the forum to learn about some old/outdated, different version of the game that existed years ago....that you cling to and continue to play.

the version of the game that exists today, fp buildings are so powerful and easily won that investing fp's in hagia to make fp's in a few years makes little to no practical sense anymore

you're basically the equivalent of a basketball coach who doesn't use or teach the 3 point shot, because 'it ruined the game'.
it didn't ruin the game. it changed the game. you are failing to adapt and are clinging to a different version of the game that existed years ago.

your mindset is ruining this game for the current players and new members who are trying to learn and understand it, and come here and end up listening to people preach FOE 2015-2016.

Nice rant. Doesn't make much sense, but you probably feel better for getting it off your chest. Someday you'll have to explain how someone could be playing a game that "existed years ago". That would be a nice trick.

 

[DeletedUser29726]

In reference to the arc side-converstion:

it changed the game. you are failing to adapt and are clinging to a different version of the game that existed years ago.

I happen to agree with stephen that it ruined the game - it's one of the few things I agree with him on. Personally I have adapted to its existence and use it extensively. I enjoyed it at first but I found the game in general got too easy a while down the road with all the extra GB benefits it brought along with it and that killed my motivation to keep trying to get stronger because it seemed unnecessary. aka ruined the game for me.

Yes it's 'just' a change, but it was a massive one, and the game afterwards looks entirely different than the game before it. I can respect that some people prefer the game after its launch. Is it so hard for you to respect that some people prefer the game before it?

If a "challenge" world was launched where it was disabled (as in will-never-exist) or at least tuned down (say halved effect of all GBs), I'd be there in a heartbeat and more motivated than I've been in a long time to play FoE. This is mostly a thought experiment though because they've shown no interest in launching worlds with alternate rulesets (all kinds of alternate rulesets would interest me honestly - most of my fun comes from analyzing strategies - things that change a large portion of that analysis would give me months more analysis to do).

 

[Emberguard]

@xivarmy tuned down doesn't have to mean changing the effect itself for a "challenge" world. Just put a lvl cap on it. Somewhere between lvl 10-30 would be a sufficient cap for the Arc

[edit] Also I would support a challenge world that either limits all GBs to lvl 10 or just gives the arc a lvl cap. And doesn't allow players to have any GB above their age. They could still get BPs and goods for them, just not build until reaching that age [/edit]

 

[DeletedUser33036]

One thing all of you are forgetting, is that for players who intend to hyper level most of their GBs anyway, Hagia Sophia is still better than event buildings. After all you have to put your fps somewhere, and after you have hypered leveled most of your other GBs the Hagia might just be an ok place to dump fps. In another words the oportunity cost of not leveling other GBs slowly lessens, as the cost of those other GBs to level rises exponentially. My Arc is only level 35, but one day I will hyper level my Hagia too.

 

[DeletedUser29726]

@xivarmy tuned down doesn't have to mean changing the effect itself for a "challenge" world. Just put a lvl cap on it. Somewhere between lvl 10-30 would be a sufficient cap for the Arc

[edit] Also I would support a challenge world that either limits all GBs to lvl 10 or just gives the arc a lvl cap. And doesn't allow players to have any GB above their age. They could still get BPs and goods for them, just not build until reaching that age [/edit]

I don't like the idea of level caps because it puts a 'nothing more to do' point - even without arc getting buildings to 10 doesn't take that long anymore - you need more room for advancement than that. Halved effect changes the game across the board both pre and post arc and creates all sort of interesting challenges is why I mentioned that one. Seeing what you can do with 45% attack boost instead of 90% for instance in a level 10 situation

Increased level costs with same rewards would also be an indirect arc nerf.

There's a lot of ways they could change things. But first they'd need to be open to the idea of not all worlds following the same rules

 

[Emberguard]

Eh. You'd be forcing people to get the arc instead of working around the arc due to needing double the resources/FPs in everything. At that point I'd rather just remove the arc for that world and keep normal stats on other GBs

One thing all of you are forgetting, is that for players who intend to hyper level most of their GBs anyway, Hagia Sophia is still better than event buildings. After all you have to put your fps somewhere, and after you have hypered leveled most of your other GBs the Hagia might just be an ok place to dump fps. In another words the oportunity cost of not leveling other GBs slowly lessens, as the cost of those other GBs to level rises exponentially. My Arc is only level 35, but one day I will hyper level my Hagia too.

Not forgetting, just not articulating clearly

(3) your argument only holds weight if you can keep using the FPs when you avoid the FP generating GBs. No point in building up event buildings in place of GBs and then find you have nowhere to use the FPs generated because you don't have a GB to place them on, and you don't have the goods necessary to unlock the next tech. All GBs take a long time to give back their investment if you're focusing on them in a vacuum environment where only they exist independent of all other GBs

(4) multiple sources are more efficient then a single source. The return of investment on something like the cape would come around a lot faster if you swap between lvl'ing it and other FP GBs such as the Hagia

you might want to break that down. the way you are explaining does not make any sense to me and my understanding of how GB leveling works. .. you also made a similar comment earlier maybe someone else can explain what you're trying to say

Here you go Empire, what Josar said ^