When can we stop pretending GBG is balanced?

[Tony 85 the Generous]

I wonder if the complaints are from folks who do not know how or do not want to have to bother with how to get to the top. (yes yes you all want the best I understand I want the best but found I can do it in the current scheme. True in some Seasons my Guilds are stuck, others not stuck, life goes on.)

If you wonder what the other complaints are, then I'm sorry to say you have not read at least half of this thread. There are many posts with points that are in no way related to "getting to the top", including the OP and the title of this thread.

 

[Kestrel WindReaper]

I love GbG. I've played and helped strategize every round from the first. My guild began in silver and we are steadily in diamond now - and have been since March. We have a 24/7 operation to keep things running, invested heavily in our members to increase strength and to boost our treasury. GbG really put our guild on the map, because while most guilds were still complaining that it was just a drain on resources, we used GbG to skyrocket our guild's growth.

Despite all this, I do have some concerns about GbG and I do agree that there are some problems with it. In the beginning, the matchups did seem fair and reasonable. We really had to work hard to move up. For the past several months though, there has been a gradual increase in the number of diamond guilds every round, but also in the number of 1000 point guilds. And if you play GbG as much as I do, you will know that there can be a VAST range in actual guild strength between all the guilds at 1000 MMR.

For example, our guild is still no match at all for the top two guilds in our world. We keep trying but the gap to overcome is *huge*. Their top players -700 million to 1 billion+ points with lvl 150+ GBs- vs our top player, about 140 million. We still do well in spite of it, and will keep working. However, then you have these incredibly weak guilds that turn up in the rounds who barely make it out of their HQs, where the gap in strength is so ridiculously out of whack between them and these behemoths that it makes no sense whatsoever. What ends up happening is they form a sort of buffer where there is no chance whatsoever that we can lose... we will remain 1000 MMR even if we play blindfolded. What's the fun in that? And how is it fair for the top guilds who end up bored out of their minds, for the bottom guilds who do nothing for 11 days and for us caught in the middle, neither moving up nor down?

A lot of guilds in my world are getting tired of GbG, because aside from individual rewards, there is no longer really a point to it. I feel like all of the limelight for what makes competition exciting and worthwhile has been drowned out. For starters, who ever heard of a twenty-four 1000 point tie in a competitive game or sport? Why are there not tie breakers to actually determine who actually played the better game? Prestige ranking does not work, because the ranking is still dominated by points earned in GvG, whereas the GbG plateau does nothing for a guild at 1000.

There was a point where my guild excelled to the point of being the 3rd or 4th strongest GbG guild in our world. This was before everyone hit the 1000 point plateau over and over. And who knew about it? Nobody. Why couldn't there be a scoreboard of some sort to show off how all the guilds are doing overall? Maybe show some kind of ranking points for vanity, but keep the cap for the sake of matchups.

My point is simply this - most guilds have stopped playing competitively, because all of the joys of competition simply do not exist. No special ranking, no top score, no big prize. Nothing to brag about. As I said in the beginning, I love GbG, but surely it wouldn't take much to fix some of these issues to at least make it competitive again and allow guilds to brag a little?

 

[wolfhoundtoo]

I always GBG was meant to emphasize the individual rewards. GE gives you guild victories, GVG gives you guild victories. You seem to be saying that now that you've hit a plateau on how easy it is to measure your improvements that you want it changed. Sure it can seem like you are doing the same thing over and over again because you are doing the same thing over and over again. Much of the unhappiness here seems to lie with those that want GBG to be something that it really isn't meant to be: some kind of contest beyond the individual season.

 

[Kestrel WindReaper]

I always GBG was meant to emphasize the individual rewards. GE gives you guild victories, GVG gives you guild victories. You seem to be saying that now that you've hit a plateau on how easy it is to measure your improvements that you want it changed.

Wow, you can’t be serious. It is called >GUILD< battlegrounds... And was designed to replace GvG. How is that just about individual rewards? How is that not about competition? And why would you spend resources to fight other guilds if not to compete? It began as a competition and what I am saying is that it is not any longer a reasonable competition, because it has evolved into something unbalanced.

Our current round has the top top strongest guilds in our world. Top player in one, over 1 billion, top player in the other, 700 million. Then there is us, top player 140 million. And then there is a guild where their top player has 3 million. Again, how does that make sense? It’s beyond unfair, more like outright cruel. We can’t even beat those top two guilds in a race, but we could keep that 3 million player guild locked up all week if we wanted to. The discussion topic of this thread is about how GbG is unbalanced. There is no doubt, it is unbalanced.

 

[Ebeondi Asi]

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[wolfhoundtoo]

Wow, you can’t be serious. It is called >GUILD< battlegrounds... And was designed to replace GvG. How is that just about individual rewards? How is that not about competition? And why would you spend resources to fight other guilds if not to compete? It began as a competition and what I am saying is that it is not any longer a reasonable competition, because it has evolved into something unbalanced.

Our current round has the top top strongest guilds in our world. Top player in one, over 1 billion, top player in the other, 700 million. Then there is us, top player 140 million. And then there is a guild where their top player has 3 million. Again, how does that make sense? It’s beyond unfair, more like outright cruel. We can’t even beat those top two guilds in a race, but we could keep that 3 million player guild locked up all week if we wanted to. The discussion topic of this thread is about how GbG is unbalanced. There is no doubt, it is unbalanced.

Yeah I can indeed be serious. Unlike GE which has a running trophy system, GBG simple tracks LP and stops at a hard cap. Even if GBG was meant to replace GVG (is that an official statement of Inno or player presumption?) the mechanics are very much unlike GVG as there aren't really direct individual rewards in GVG. My conclusion remains that the vast majority of the issues revolve around that people want to be able to 'compete' to win like winning a GBG season means something especially if you are finding it 'boring'.

 

[Kestrel WindReaper]

Even if GBG was meant to replace GVG (is that an official statement of Inno or player presumption?)

Yes, it was in one of the early introductions to GbG

My conclusion remains that the vast majority of the issues revolve around that people want to be able to 'compete' to win like winning a GBG season means something especially if you are finding it 'boring'.

I’m sorry but I have never heard of a battlegrounds where you are meant to do anything other than compete and win. I’m sure if we were meant to sit around and have tea and biscuits, it would have been called Guild Tea Party.

 

[wolfhoundtoo]

I’m sorry but I have never heard of a battlegrounds where you are meant to do anything other than compete and win. I’m sure if we were meant to sit around and have tea and biscuits, it would have been called Guild Tea Party.

No how much you or any player wants to emphasis winning is on you. The system is set up to only reward the guild a limited amount (directly) and has been pointed out in this thread several times already there is nothing that tracks how you do over all in GBG (unlike in GE) and the very nature of the LP system means there's nothing to show for where you place as a guild in multiple seasons. All of the rewards are geared to the individuals as previously mentioned. You can compete all you want that doesn't change that there is isn't anything beyond where you place in one season. In fact many guilds do better by working with others than by competing. don't like that? No problem but that is your problem not Inno's problem.

Which all brings me back to me original point: The issues here lie with those that want competition (and the bragging rights of winning which I find pretty funny as most of you asking for this would be settling for winning little league and acting like you won the World Series) and those that want individual rewards. Well, has anyone heard of any changes coming on Beta? No? Well at least for now it sure seems like the votes are in and the competition people lost.

 

[Tony 85 the Generous]

Which all brings me back to me original point: The issues here lie with those that want competition (and the bragging rights of winning which I find pretty funny as most of you asking for this would be settling for winning little league and acting like you won the World Series) and those that want individual rewards. Well, has anyone heard of any changes coming on Beta? No? Well at least for now it sure seems like the votes are in and the competition people lost.

Youare saying that Inno has decided they don't want battlegrounds but reward grounds. That's good to know. Good to know they won't be trying to provide more even match ups, to stop alliances and stronger guilds from bullying the weaker.

 

[Ebeondi Asi]

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[Tony 85 the Generous]

Thank you for the following statement:

Until the power struggle is decided. Then, some Guilds may decide it's best to work out how to share our hard fought gains.
...
On the other hand one of my Guilds does give up areas on the edges for the weaker Guilds once the main question of who won what position is settled for the Season.

That is exactly the point of this thread and an example of the problems that exist in GBG.

Any Guild can and may attack and win some territory.

Win but not allowed or able to hold.

Dictionary:
bully
- a blustering, mean, or predatory person who, from a perceived position of relative power or strength, intimidates, abuses, harasses, or coerces people, especially those considered unlikely to defend themselves
bullied
-to act the bully toward; habitually intimidate, abuse, or harass; or to coerce or compel by bullying

When one or a group of guilds ally (problem #2) against a weaker or single guild, then they are (in fact) bullying (problem #3). The ability to bully comes from "a perceived position of relative power or strength" which means that there guilds of unequal strength matched together in a season of GBG (problem #1).

Addressing and making the matchups of guilds more even is only half of the problem. As guilds are still allowed to ally and be stronger as a group over a signle or other group of guilds. Removing the ability to ally within GBG, eliminates the other half.

The suggestions I have put forth, primarily address the ability to ally. Removing the ability to ally by keeping the guild names anonymous until the conclusion of GBG will have an indirect effect on the matchup and bullying since no guild will know which other guilds are on the map.

 

[wiserpenny]

(sum of the top 5 players; as this is the only metric currently provided for comparison).

do you mean top 5 GBG contributions or top 5 scores? Because rank scoring means nothing for GBG. An iron age player with an optimal set up allowing them to fight or negotiate huge numbers can dominate a SAAB player with a much higher score. GBG is a bit even that way.

 

[Ebeondi Asi]

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[CommanderCool1234]

My guild is also not doing to well right now but no one is complaining we are all talking about how we can improve and make this a learning experience.

 

[wolfhoundtoo]

Thank you for the following statement:

That is exactly the point of this thread and an example of the problems that exist in GBG.

Win but not allowed or able to hold.

Dictionary:
bully
- a blustering, mean, or predatory person who, from a perceived position of relative power or strength, intimidates, abuses, harasses, or coerces people, especially those considered unlikely to defend themselves
bullied
-to act the bully toward; habitually intimidate, abuse, or harass; or to coerce or compel by bullying

When one or a group of guilds ally (problem #2) against a weaker or single guild, then they are (in fact) bullying (problem #3). The ability to bully comes from "a perceived position of relative power or strength" which means that there guilds of unequal strength matched together in a season of GBG (problem #1).

Addressing and making the matchups of guilds more even is only half of the problem. As guilds are still allowed to ally and be stronger as a group over a signle or other group of guilds. Removing the ability to ally within GBG, eliminates the other half.

The suggestions I have put forth, primarily address the ability to ally. Removing the ability to ally by keeping the guild names anonymous until the conclusion of GBG will have an indirect effect on the matchup and bullying since no guild will know which other guilds are on the map.

The vast majority time they aren't bullying you because they don't care about you one way or the other. They want rewards to best get means flipping sectors as often as possible with as many SCs as possible.

No one is allowed to hold anything in GBG on their own unless you've swept board and/or locked your sectors accordingly. Now depending on how much a single guild wants 1st versus being able to work with the others to get more battles in will determine how much (or how soon) those flips can be done on a regular basis. You need to force flips on the off sectors and you need to be able to get your players on once you've broken that timing. Well I guess the other plan is to come here and hope Inno agreed that they want to make changes to GBG. Thing is Inno doesn't want a reward battleground anymore than they want a super competitive battleground. What they want is enough people logging in and playing to keep them active in the game while earning them revenue (i.e. spending diamonds). The current system would seem to be doing that since they've done nothing to indicate that they are considering changes. Inno has never cared about 'in game' bullying. You can plunder one poor guy every day (as can the whole hood assuming they breach him and he has stuff to take), GVG you can ally up as much as you want, etc. You and your guild need to take yourself.

 

[Tony 85 the Generous]

The vast majority time they aren't bullying you because they don't care about you one way or the other. They want rewards to best get means flipping sectors as often as possible with as many SCs as possible.

There are in fact guilds that are bullies. All that I have encountered are in diamond. Then again, based on the definition of a bully, you need to be or have the appearance of power, so it is logical that is where they would be.

No one is allowed to hold anything in GBG on their own unless you've swept board and/or locked your sectors accordingly.

When two guilds ally, and softlock all the sectors around your base they can hold you their. There isn't thing one you can do about. So it is abosultely possiible and does happen. It has nothing to do with swapping sectors.

Well I guess the other plan is to come here and hope Inno agreed that they want to make changes to GBG. Thing is Inno doesn't want a reward battleground anymore than they want a super competitive battleground. What they want is enough people logging in and playing to keep them active in the game while earning them revenue (i.e. spending diamonds). The current system would seem to be doing that since they've done nothing to indicate that they are considering changes. Inno has never cared about 'in game' bullying.

And I would think that one reason why Inno is running this forum. If not, then there is little point. I have enough people in my guilds and worlds to help learn the game mechanics. If I want to help more people, I would start another city, not come here.

 

[Tony 85 the Generous]

do you mean top 5 GBG contributions or top 5 scores? Because rank scoring means nothing for GBG. An iron age player with an optimal set up allowing them to fight or negotiate huge numbers can dominate a SAAB player with a much higher score. GBG is a bit even that way.

The only metric available across guilds are the scores (MMR I think) of the individual players. As I noted from a few seasons ago, The sum of the top 5 players from the leagues on the map were
1. 1993M
2. 671M
3. 293M
4. 295M
5. 1254M
6. 561M

I know it means nothing directly for matching in GBG. It is possible to get a high number without building, Zeus, CoA, CdM, and TA without which your ability to fight is severly compromised. I will say they mean little terms of actual strength or ability to fight. But this is only the only number provided by which we can compare. So for now it is what it is and what we have to work with. I would love a "might" number to indicate fight strength that could be summed for the guild and used to select guilds for a GBG season map.

 

[wolfhoundtoo]

There are in fact guilds that are bullies. All that I have encountered are in diamond. Then again, based on the definition of a bully, you need to be or have the appearance of power, so it is logical that is where they would be.


When two guilds ally, and softlock all the sectors around your base they can hold you their. There isn't thing one you can do about. So it is abosultely possiible and does happen. It has nothing to do with swapping sectors.


And I would think that one reason why Inno is running this forum. If not, then there is little point. I have enough people in my guilds and worlds to help learn the game mechanics. If I want to help more people, I would start another city, not come here.

You are wrong in regards to them softlocking your sectors and what you can do about it. Odds are unless you've been unlucky and there's tons of SCs around your base (which I don't think I've ever seen anyone's base that surrounded by camps) they have to spend attrition to do those softlocks. By forcing the change sooner than they want you force them to have players on at a different time than they were going to have to do so before that. On top of that so long as you cost them attrition to keep softlocking you then they'll eventually balk at doing that every single time. What they do (unless you've done something to especially annoy them) is do it enough to discourage you and you give up. I've yet to see a guild that has enough members that are willing to give up all of the rewards they can get later to lock down a minor competitor assuming that competitor can be bothered to compete.

And this isn't an official feed back thread so if you are hoping to gain Inno's attention well that's probably going to be as effective as those messages you no doubt sent out to those 'bully' guilds. Actually less so because that's no doubt why they really spend the attrition on your guild.

 

[Tony 85 the Generous]

You are combining an absolute statement

You are wrong in regards to them softlocking your sectors and what you can do about it.

with a possible statement

And this isn't an official feed back thread so if you are hoping to gain Inno's attention well that's probably going to be as effective as those messages you no doubt sent out to those 'bully' guilds. Actually less so because that's no doubt why they really spend the attrition on your guild.

Yes, I'm hoping someone from Inno will read and at least evaluate the situation before more guilds start bailing on using this "new" feature. My hope is for changes to GBG that will provide even playing field for all the guilds grouped on a map for a given season. Nothing more, nothing less. I'm not looking for easier competition. I'm looking for Inno to provide even competition. As the title says "When can we stop pretending GBG is balanced?".

Additionally, we don't waste time messaging or talking with those guilds. We have enough experience to recognize the situation to just stop playing, and attack only when the mood strikes. The flip side is. this robs them of the ability for "addition fights and rewards" as the sectors never change hands.

Locking guilds into their base is one form of bullying. There is also the extortion tactic of "we have decided on the finishing order. You get X. If you try for a position higher, we will flatten you" if you are 'lucky enough' to be included in the alliance. This brings all three failures of GBG back into focus, 1-alliances, 2-uneven matchups, and 3-bullying.

 

[Graviton]

There is no bullying. Bullying is a sometimes-serious real-world problem that can have real-world consequences. You're playing a war game. You're good enough to be rated highly and therefore you occasionally get roughed up by guilds that are even better at GBG than your guild. That's all. It's not permanent, and it certainly isn't physically nor emotionally scarring. So find a new word 'cause "bully" doesn't qualify.