When can we stop pretending GBG is balanced?

[Algona]

Algona, are you really suggesting that aiming to come in 3'rd or 4'th is a good strategy

Absolutely. Maybe. Depends on what the Guild goals are and what we collectively want out of GBG. Lacking that information and based on Tony's scenario of just choosing between

A) being promoted to Diamond with it's demoralizing effect on the Guild, or

B) Manipulating Guild placement to avoid promotion.

my decisions is simple. I'll take B.

Note werl! There are alternatives that have been dismissed, namely a bit of diplomacy. See below.

FOE is a strategy game, but when a good strategy is to avoid coming in 1'st or 2'nd, doesn't that suggest that maybe the problem is with the game?

Great question. No, the 'problem' arises from there being multiple goals / Rewards for GBG. Different goals can make for different strategies.

Given up to 8 Guilds per League and only one can win, isn't having multiple possible goals and strategies a good thing?

Since you avoided and/or did not answer the question, you agree there is nothing you can do this season to be competitive. Furthermore, you point to me, but I'm not the only one in this same situation.

No, I haven't answered your question because I'm trying to drive home that you are the one putting your Guild in this situation. When I did start to answer, you dismissed that out of hand,

What would I do? I pointed you towards the best answer to your specific scenario a few posts back. It's how my Guild in W, with 1 Oceanic, 1 Arctic, and 3 Future players has managed to stay in Diamond for 9 months.

It's the same answer I gave to folk asking the same question weeks after GBG started.

No point with further arguing, you'll either get it eventually or not. Either way, it ain't my problem.

 

[Graviton]

Why should a guild be promoted when they are not able to compete?

Because up to that point they've bested the guilds they have competed against. Where else are they supposed to go?

It seems to me that the argument is to have a "stable" ranking system where guilds rarely if ever progress; that Inno should group guilds so narrowly and before they begin competing that their ranking never really changes. That sounds very boring to me. I'm not a fan of Inno stratifying guilds from On High.

Having said that...

Why do we have to sit around and wait 13 days for the season to end so we can compete?

...I do see how this is frustrating. I just don't know how to address it without Inno dictating where guilds "belong" based upon criteria outside of direct competition, which I think is a bad idea.

I don't have any answers, I just think the answers I'm seeing aren't good ones, and the complaints aren't completely without merit, but are also somewhat lacking in foresight.

 

[Lady Gato]

Sigh -- I belong to a guild on beta where we bounce back & forth between diamond and platinum. So we've encountered some of the frustrations that others have experienced. However, we keep battling on -- while our guild might not come in first or even second, our players get awesome rewards by being in diamond and we never stop playing even if we end up with our backs to the wall with no sectors. We keep plugging away and slowly but surely building up points - being the turtle rather than the hare. And towards the end of the season, when the other guilds have spent a good majority of their effort, they slow down and we catch up. Some seasons are better than others. I am in IA there and we have a lot of small players there giving it their all - we are working towards building our cities and our armies and I think we are doing ok.

I like reading ideas here from bigger players and bigger guilds on how to grow and how to better our gbg skills. I understand others' frustrations but isn't it a game to be learned rather than a game that has to be "dumbed down"? I mean chess is frustrating - but I don't think they change the rules simply because we don't understand it or don't have the skills to play it properly.

 

[wolfhoundtoo]

Since you avoided and/or did not answer the question, you agree there is nothing you can do this season to be competitive. Furthermore, you point to me, but I'm not the only one in this same situation.

For someone who says he doesn't care about winning you insist on very narrowly defining GBG success to one individual season. Just like our cities, just like on the GVG map, in the GE competitions and of course in GBG the issue isn't how a guild can complete at one given time but how they can become competitive over time. The problem sure seems to me that you want to keep doing what you've been doing and get different results.

 

[Tony 85 the Generous]

For someone who says he doesn't care about winning you insist on very narrowly defining GBG success to one individual season. Just like our cities, just like on the GVG map, in the GE competitions and of course in GBG the issue isn't how a guild can complete at one given time but how they can become competitive over time. The problem sure seems to me that you want to keep doing what you've been doing and get different results.

Thank you for agreeing that promotion and demotion are single season possibilities. I did not define GBG success to one season. Inno did. In one season you can have a poor matchup in platinum league where you are the great giant against a bunch of tiny weaker guilds. Whup them and, in one season, move to diamond 1 where you are now the single weak guild against 5-7 giants. Then in one season be moved back to platinum.

In this thread alone, a dozen guilds have been documented to be in this situation. Algona has posted about the situation, therefore that is one set of guilds. I documented a season of 7 guilds, a fast skim found 4 others, and (oh yeah) the OP that started the thread. What is the total number of guilds and FoE players across all the worlds does this effect? Obviously not all of them are posting here. So we do not know the exact number and/or how wide spread the issue is. It is always the one standing on the soap box that gets singled out, but this problem of a guild being placed on GBG with guilds against whom they cannot compete is more than just my single guild.

 

[RazorbackPirate]

Thank you for agreeing that promotion and demotion are single season possibilities. I did not define GBG success to one season. Inno did. In one season you can have a poor matchup in platinum league where you are the great giant against a bunch of tiny weaker guilds. Whup them and, in one season, move to diamond 1 where you are now the single weak guild against 5-7 giants. Then in one season be moved back to platinum.

In this thread alone, a dozen guilds have been documented to be in this situation. Algona has posted about the situation, therefore that is one set of guilds. I documented a season of 7 guilds, a fast skim found 4 others, and (oh yeah) the OP that started the thread. What is the total number of guilds and FoE players across all the worlds does this effect? Obviously not all of them are posting here. So we do not know the exact number and/or how wide spread the issue is. It is always the one standing on the soap box that gets singled out, but this problem of a guild being placed on GBG with guilds against whom they cannot compete is more than just my single guild.

Nice persecution complex developing. Back to the topic at hand.

The problem is not that the system works the way it does, the problem is that you can't deal with the losses the system ensures. Are many other guilds in the same boat? Absolutely. My guild included. The system was designed that way. Yet, it's only a very vocal minority that bothers to come here to complain.

Most of us just keep working to improve our individual cities to, individually, be more effective team members. For many, including myself, GBG is more about the personal rewards, which have a lasting impact on my city, than any fleeting ego boost from a seasonal win, which doesn't

Interestingly enough, a guild full of people focused on individual performance and individual achievement, will also grow as a team to be more effective, as a team. There was a time our little guild of 23-35 would make it to Diamond League every 3rd or 4th round, then be right back to Platinum. Now, just a few months later, we get kicked down to Platinum every 3rd or 4th round.

When we get kicked, it's typically because we weren't able to join a farming alliance. Sometimes the big boys just don't want to share. So what?
There's always next season, the season after that, and the one after that, then the one after that one... You get the idea.

Will we ever be able to compete against the heavy hitter guilds with 70+ members? No. But again, so what? Man up and take your losses. Not everyone gets a trophy.

 

[Just An Observer]

One thing which surprised me about 1000 point Diamond League play is the amount of weak guilds present. There are always 1 or 2 who do nothing. If Diamond League play was just all real power guilds in C-world, my guess is the number would max out at 24 or so.

 

[Emberguard]

One thing which surprised me about 1000 point Diamond League play is the amount of weak guilds present. There are always 1 or 2 who do nothing.

When GBG first came out my guild deliberately held back into 2nd when the opponent used siege camps because although we knew we were fully capable of matching them in counter moves, maybe even beat them at their game, we didn’t want to expend those resources so quickly if the 2nd spot still keeps us moving up the ranks. And for that world the guild I was in ended up proving long term in GBG to be one of the absolute top performers if not the top guild for that world

If a guild is at 1,000 LPs and doing nothing it doesn’t always mean they’re weak. It could just as easily mean they’ve chosen to deliberately go for a lower prize that would also need a lower amount of resources to gain in the process

 

[Pumbaa the Great]

One thing which surprised me about 1000 point Diamond League play is the amount of weak guilds present. There are always 1 or 2 who do nothing. If Diamond League play was just all real power guilds in C-world, my guess is the number would max out at 24 or so.

Sometime the sun shine on certain dogs places... Those got a lucky draw in platinum and moved up to diamond to get smoked check by a guild in the top 10 or 5 in rankings than get kicked back down into platinum.

 

[Ebeondi Asi]

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[Tony 85 the Generous]

One point missed about a Guild winning Platinum then getting smoked in Diamond is enthusiasm.
In the Platinum they didn't have to worry perhaps and were able to dominate the map. Thus many in the Guild were enthusiastic and played GbG a lot.. they won a lot. Then, next season in diamond the enthusiasm vanished as in the first twenty minutes they had won one bit of turf, and two other Guilds had split the entire map between themselves in the same time. So all those previously enthusiastic in Platinum just decide to go home and sulk until next season.
Instead of fighting as hard as they can and win at least a 4th place.they choose to be last.

Not missed by me, nor the other dozen guilds quoted in this thread. In some cases, the alliances won't allow you to even fight for 4th place. After the other allied guilds reach you, they soft lock you into your base and that is the only sector your get to own for 10 days. (you might get a sector or two on day one, but after 4-5 hours, they conquer and their alliance soft locks it for the rest of the season)

Those are the people complaining.

and there are plently of them. Not the majority for sure, but I would venture more guilds are stuck in the diamond-platinum ping pong stage than in are in diamond league constantly.

 

[Jennie2019]

The idea of GBG was great but the execution was flawed. I don’t know if Inno expected that guilds would take a “battle” game and just turn it into a way to get rewards without trying. I’m in a high level guild that’s considering reducing our GBG focus because it’s boring to farm. Here’s what I think could be done to improve it:
1. Change the number of building slots. Put 2 in every beach province. This will allow even the wimpiest guild to get off the beach. Take all slots out of the center and reduce the #2 ring to 1 slot. Force the larger/farming guilds to take attrition.
2. Open the competition to cross worlds. It works for GE - it will work here. We actually had a GBG recently that 2 associated guilds were in the same map. Not fun. One of my guilds can actually guess at least 1/2 of the guilds they will face each season. Even France and England got bored with attacking each other after a few centuries.
3. Don’t allow provinces that are not connected to the home province. If you lose your connection then you lose all the disconnected provinces. Colonizing stifles competition. If a smaller guild can break the connection, they have a chance to gain some territory. Also, it will change the strategy of just rushing to the center without building a strong corridor.
4. Have a maximum number of battles/negotiations that any one player may have per day or season. That would really help competition. Of course, Inno can sell battle packs for diamonds.

Any or all of these would help make a more exciting, competitive environment.

 

[Jennie2019]

Honestly, I think if any change is done that Diamond league should require a flat 1000 points to be in, and if you lose any points you are out. Wouldn't solve everything, but would make things a bit tighter at the top.

I haven't been a fan of the reduced number of building spots since it appears to make it harder for guilds to get off the rim if they get stuck there, making the center even more under the control of the top 2 guilds than it was before. This change only made things harder for lower level players and guilds. It hasn't changed much for all the top players in SAAB with 1500 attack. If every rim sector had more building slots, and the center ones had less as you move in, that might make competition tighter too.

My suggestion of having slots on the beach supports this. Take the slots from the center, reduce #2 ring but put 2 in every outer ring and let people get off the beach.

 

[Ace-]

I don’t doubt those games were enjoyable, but I’m sure that the Portland Beavers didn’t play half their games against MLB teams. From the comments in this thread, it is clear that many guilds are forced into situations where they have no chance to be competitive, despite strategies, participation, morale, etc. Changing the promotion algorithms to better match ability seems to be an idea Inno should consider. Perhaps factor in Victory points. For example, we have put up a good fight this time and may stay in Diamond. But we have only a tenth of the victory points of the leader. Does that mean we should face similar opponents next time? Ultimately it is Inno’s interest to make the game attractive to all players.

 

[Pumbaa the Great]

The idea of GBG was great but the execution was flawed. I don’t know if Inno expected that guilds would take a “battle” game and just turn it into a way to get rewards without trying. I’m in a high level guild that’s considering reducing our GBG focus because it’s boring to farm. Here’s what I think could be done to improve it:
1. Change the number of building slots. Put 2 in every beach province. This will allow even the wimpiest guild to get off the beach. Take all slots out of the center and reduce the #2 ring to 1 slot. Force the larger/farming guilds to take attrition.
2. Open the competition to cross worlds. It works for GE - it will work here. We actually had a GBG recently that 2 associated guilds were in the same map. Not fun. One of my guilds can actually guess at least 1/2 of the guilds they will face each season. Even France and England got bored with attacking each other after a few centuries.
3. Don’t allow provinces that are not connected to the home province. If you lose your connection then you lose all the disconnected provinces. Colonizing stifles competition. If a smaller guild can break the connection, they have a chance to gain some territory. Also, it will change the strategy of just rushing to the center without building a strong corridor.
4. Have a maximum number of battles/negotiations that any one player may have per day or season. That would really help competition. Of course, Inno can sell battle packs for diamonds.

Any or all of these would help make a more exciting, competitive environment.

Those all sounds like good changes to start to improve the GBG gameplay. Good thing they are here instead of the other thread, there they would get dumped into the DNS thread.

 

[Wildelk68]

Some good suggestions, some not so good! The one thing I find the absolute worst about GBG is the 11 day season! Frankly, I get bored after 5 days and so do most of my guildmates, add to that a bad league draw where one can't get enough rewards because they are shutdown and attrition is thru the roof and you can see why anyone would say the heck with this nonsense!! Its a very poorly thought out concept and even more poorly executed!!

 

[DeletedUser]

I made this suggestion but of course DNS like everything in here

"The Octagon"

" This is a top tier level that pits the winners of both Diamond levels against each other. 2 guilds only , mano a mano , no alliances , no buildings to discourage farming and just head to head and may the best guild win. It will not be populated by the same two guilds because of the no building rule and will give GbG a real fighting apex . It purges both guilds after the winner is declared to avoid getting trapped in purgatory and the next two go in the following season. "

That would end the BS with one guild living on the top level. They bully and live at the top then every second season they go back in the Octagon , problem solved

 

[Ebeondi Asi]

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[wiserpenny]

Here is a screenshot of our current GBG map in diamond league 1 hour after GBG opened. Before giving my thoughts, I'm going to start a hashtag called #InnoBalance:

When your 2nd grader reaches the final round in the school spelling bee and has to beat an English professor #InnoBalance

When the state championship football game is a local varsity team vs the KC Chiefs #InnoBalance

When you're in the final round of an interview and your last task is to defend a PhD Thesis #InnoBalance

When your niece/nephew asks you to help them study their multiplication tables so you hit 'em with a little calculus instead #InnoBalance

Come on now, let's either make an apex league or make diamond the apex league and only allow the top 7-8 guilds in. If you're one of the bottom 2 GBG guilds for a season, you're out for the next season and the top 2 Plat guilds move in. This isn't hard, there are a ton of games with apex ranking systems that you can copy.

If THAT Is what your map looks like 1 hr in 7 guilds shouldnt have made it into that league. You are in an oddly balanced world where you have just a tad too many diamond guilds (or not quite enough). The # of diamond maps will change based on how guilds do. We have 3 diamond maps for the 1st time on birka this season. The top guilds will destroy everyone unless they happen to end up on same map.

If you’re one of those guilds who hasnt made a tile yet, you have no business being in diamond.Everyone on legit diamond should be pressing hard 1 hr in

 

[Tony 85 the Generous]

If THAT Is what your map looks like 1 hr in 7 guilds shouldnt have made it into that league. You are in an oddly balanced world where you have just a tad too many diamond guilds (or not quite enough). The # of diamond maps will change based on how guilds do. We have 3 diamond maps for the 1st time on birka this season. The top guilds will destroy everyone unless they happen to end up on same map.

If you’re one of those guilds who hasnt made a tile yet, you have no business being in diamond.Everyone on legit diamond should be pressing hard 1 hr in

Without seeing the stats of @Helmet Bro other guilds on the map, we don't know exactly how lopsided and out of balance that set of guilds are. But that also supports my point that the match ups are based on success not strength. From that picture, I would have to start to agree the match up Inno selected is very poor. I won't completely agree without seeing the guild numbers (sum of the top 5 players; as this is the only metric currently provided for comparison).