When can we stop pretending GBG is balanced?

[Emberguard]

Question: Is the cost of a siege camp proportional to the size of the Guild?

No.

Guild Battlegrounds - Forge of Empires - Wiki EN

en.wiki.forgeofempires.com

 

[ChandraguptaM]

About limiting rewards from a tile. If that were implemented then automatically small Guilds cannot ever win much. Because clearly small groups have to do a lot more per tile to win a tile.

Its not guild that get the rewards for a hit but a player so in this case the player would get the same number of rewards as if they were in a large guild. They would just need to do more rewardless hits to capture the tile.

Moreover as suggested there can be a feature where goods can be used to keep the reward % propped up. Just cull out the seige camps.

 

[Tony 85 the Generous]

There used to be MLB-AAA matchups. The MLB team would pay an annual; visit to their AAA farm team and this would be a nice attendance boost for the AAA team. The Portland Beavers were the farm club of the Minnesota Twins. It was pretty cool to get a taste of MLB in the Rose City!

This was a game for the pennant or for show (similar to alumni vs active player games)? If the game was not for the pennant, then it is not equivalent to what we are speaking about here.

 

[Tony 85 the Generous]

A few things can be done to make things more balanced.
1. Remove Seige Camps/Traps - Seige Camps highly skew the balance. If a guild is more powerful more than with the help of camps their strength is compunded many times more.Without it even the big hitters have to stop at some point.

If you get rid of one, the other should go as well.

Moreover as suggested there can be a feature where goods can be used to keep the reward % propped up. Just cull out the seige camps.

A Space Carrier or Himeji Castle -like building within GBG? Interesting.

Just cull out the seige camps.

As long as the traps and decoys go to the trash with the watch towers and siege camps. Reducing the maximum number of buildings in any sector to 1 would also help in this situation.

The new (to me) strategy of diamond building a fortress and then deleting when about to be captued could be addresses as well. Not specific for fortress, but the ability to remove a building when an attacking guild reaches 50%, 80%, or 90% would be a nice addition. But first let's focus on getting a level playing field (equal guild matchups) with no alliances so we can actually have a 1 v 5-7 matchup where everyone has a chance to compete.

2. Limit the number of rewards a person can get from a tile. After all can one mine diamonds/gold/metals to an unlimited level from a piece of land? Obviously it has to be at a person level not at a guild level so that smaller players in a guild are not disadvantaged.

This will reduce swaps as there will not be too much benefit in maintaining the swap and they will need to move to other territories while ignoring the emptied ones. There is a drawback to the above but also a solution. How to burn the goods for inno and how to keep top players interested to continue to hit? A feauture where through goods they can increase the % back up once it reaches below a certain level. This way they will continue to burn goods, get rewards for fighting and have some control on overwhelming the others through attrition. Sure there can be improvements but this is atleast a more nuanced and balanced way than the lazy game mechanics that is present now.

Swaps are not, directly, the issue. They do not whollyimpact the ability of a weaker guild to participate. I would say,on the contrary, they would at least help the weaker guild get something from GBG without a high guild or player expense. But the mechanism by which the swap is setup and permitted by the stronger guild for the benefit of the weaker guild also limits the ability of the weaker guild to compete on the leaderboard. This is an impact of the alliance that was formed (problem #1) and the poor match up that has such placed a guild with a distinct competitive disadvantage on the map with the stronger guild(s) (problem #2).

 

[wolfhoundtoo]

This was a game for the pennant or for show (similar to alumni vs active player games)? If the game was not for the pennant, then it is not equivalent to what we are speaking about here.

Not quite since in fact we're all unpaid volunteer teams. A better analogy would be nonprofessional sports in which players join leagues. Some of them are well balanced and some are big mismatches. That is why they formed competitive leagues in some places. I get the distinct impression you want the top spot but don't want to do what it would take to make your guild competitive with the guilds that are willing to do what it takes to do well. GE my guild has only a mandatory requirement to do level 1 and something like 5 battles a day for GBG. If we want to get better we'll have to change that and recruit players that are willing to put in the work to win those matchups.

 

[Algona]

Diplomacy = Alliances = The root of the other problem

No, I mean diplomacy. An Alliance of two Guilds working to exclude all others is only one of many possible results from diplomacy.

How would motivate a high school football team to compete to win against a professional (paid pro-athlete) team?

Thinking your Guildies are the equivalent of high school students explains the morale problem in your Guild.

Argument by analogy is seldom sooth. I can type a thousand words on why this analogy sucks unbelievably hard, I'll leave you with this:

1 out of 3 million people play professional football. 1 in 15 high school students play football. Any FoE player who puts in a reasonable amount of both effort to learn the game and time playing can successfully compete at the highest level of GBG in 18 months give or take 6 months.

With that said the two questions at the top of the list are:
1. How to stop the alliances from forming in GBG to make it a true open battle ground.
2. How to better define the leagues or the members of the leagues, including the mechanism of promotion and demotion between the leagues.

Wrong. The question you should be asking yourself is:

How do I maximize my Guild and my personal enjoyment and benefit from GBG?

Given your opinion of your Guild, the answer for your Guild is obvious. Stay in Platinum.

Until you understand the following, no matter how GBG is changed your Guild will always be second (I'm not the one comparing your Guild to high school kids) rate:

Your Guild Leadership is solely at fault for your Guild not being able to compete at the highest level of any aspect of this game.

 

[Tony 85 the Generous]

Thinking your Guildies are the equivalent of high school students explains the morale problem in your Guild.

Those two statements are unrelated.

1 out of 3 million people play professional football. 1 in 15 high school students play football. Any FoE player who puts in a reasonable amount of both effort to learn the game and time playing can successfully compete at the highest level of GBG in 18 months give or take 6 months.

This is where your perspective on the situation is completely wrong. Your responses have been and are focused on one player. If you are in a guild of one and can be competitive in diamond 1 then I commend you. Chances are not. There is only the select few players that can compete in diamond 1 by themselves. Not in any world I play do any of the diamond 1 guilds have less than 30 members. The FACT is that it takes a guild to compete in GBG. The strength of the guild and the relative strength of the guild to the others on the map in the season determine the potential of where a guild can land on the leaderboard at the close of the season.

Motivated does not mean competitive. A guild with 80 of the most motivated players cannot compete if they are not strong enough. How motivated would a HS football team be to play against an NFL team? WAY motivated. But they will NOT be competitive.

Wrong. The question you should be asking yourself is:

How do I maximize my Guild and my personal enjoyment and benefit from GBG?

Given your opinion of your Guild, the answer for your Guild is obvious. Stay in Platinum.

Thank you for agreeing that we should be in platinum and not advancing to diamond league. But since the league and points system says we MUST advance we are in diamond. By association you have agreed their is an issue with the points system, advancement system, and/or league separation (I don't mean all three or only one, but a combination and parts of each).

Until you understand the following, no matter how GBG is changed your Guild will always be second (I'm not the one comparing your Guild to high school kids) rate:

Your Guild Leadership is solely at fault for your Guild not being able to compete at the highest level of any aspect of this game.

I disagree completely. The leadership of the guild has little to no effect on the overall strength of the guild. I say little to no effect, as the leadership is responsible for providing efficient modes and mechanisms to allow the individual member to grow. But it is the overall combined strength of the guild that matters in GBG. Not that of one player, a handfull of players, or only the guild leadership.

If you believe the guild leadership is responsible for the guilds competivieness in GBG. If you were in the a guild where the top of members total 60M points, how would you compete against these 6 guilds: (total points of top 5 from each guild)
1. 1993M
2. 671M
3. 293M
4. 295M
5. 1254M
6. 561M

What would you do, @Algona, to be competitive during this season?

 

[Tony 85 the Generous]

Not quite since in fact we're all unpaid volunteer teams. A better analogy would be nonprofessional sports in which players join leagues. Some of them are well balanced and some are big mismatches. That is why they formed competitive leagues in some places.

I think you are getting closer to better defining the situation in GBG vs an IRL example. Try this out.
IRL for some sports, all players that sign up are accepted to play. There are "try-outs" but they are not for cuts or for making the team. These "try-outs" are to assess the skill level of each player. In this way the governing body forms teams that are of close equal talent and skill. The governing body then creates a schedule of games of these balanced teams. This forms only one league of teams. This works for a single league of 250-300 players. As you mentioned, some sports have multiple leagues. In that case, you are not talking about 300 players but perhaps 75,000 players. (75k is not a random number but the number of players in one of my worlds). With that number of players, an individual skill assessment is not possible. Instead the skill assessment is performed of the teams. We have reduced the number from 75k to 5k. Then the governing body assigns each team to a league and generates a game schedule for each league based on the teams assigned to it.

This situation is quite direct to that of GBG. Guilds are made of volunteers. Guilds are assigned leagues. A "skill assessment" is performed and the guilds assigned to leagues. Unfortunately, the "skill assessment" Inno performs is based on a points system, not actual skill (ok that would be a bit hard to assess in FoE) but the assessment also does not include evaluating the guild's strength. The only requirement for you to advance is winning. In this way a HS football team that goes undefeated this year will play in the NFL next year. Not because of skill, ability, nor strength, but ONLY because they won.

I get the distinct impression you want the top spot but don't want to do what it would take to make your guild competitive with the guilds that are willing to do what it takes to do well.

I do not care about winning, I have mentioned that previously. I am here based on the title of the thread "When can we stop pretending GBG is balanced?" I am here to discuss the fact that based on the current league, points, and advancement system makes for unbalanced matchups in a a season, pitting a winning weak guild against a number of much stronger guilds. The result is a "whupping" of the weaker guild. Not only is the weaker guild not competitive by being outclassed but is also not competitive because the stronger guilds ally and bully the weaker guild during the season.

 

[Algona]

What would you do, @Algona, to be competitive during this season?

You got a Guild you think can't compete. If I had a Guild I think could not compete in Diamonds I'd ...

Spoiler

I spent 2+ years as the day to day manager of a Guild that went from lvl 10 to top 50 pre GBG. I spent 2o16 in ProgE making sure every player who wanted one (35 that year) had a Traz. I spent the first 3 months after GE was released making sure that every player in my Guild had a lvl 5 Obs so we would have a healthy Treasury. I designed a program to acquire and level Arcs for 50 Guildies. I then turned the job of day to day manager over to someone who is much better at it then I am.

I'm also the guy who spent a ridiculous amount of time here learning (not wasting time trying to change the game!) and built another city to experiment, and taught so many players the mechanics, techniques, and philosophy of how to excel as a Guild and as individual players..

That Guild has never had morale problems, has consistently done well in GE and GBG, and has no requirements for either. Our players excel because they want to excel.

When we first got into GvG we started in IA and EMA. When we first got into GEC we strove for 50%, when we got into GBG we started in Gold and worked our way up.

The next time INNO adds to the game we'll analyze it, figure out how to do well at it, and retool our Guild to get there.

You can bet I wont be here asking INNO to change the game to suit my Guild. We won;t need the game to change to do well.

We've always believed that we can do well in anything once we learn how and develope our capability.

That's been true of every successful Guild I've seen.

I'm also the guy who spent 6 months traveling from Guild to Guild learning how different Guilds manage their affairs. And I run three cities all in successful GBG Guilds all with different techniques for doing so.

...do what I've done before Teach players, help them develope their cities, and give them every opportunity to excel.

Until then I'd manage their expectations and assure incremental success in what they do and as they grow.

And stay in the League that best suits my Guilds needs and expectations.

 

[RazorbackPirate]

Any FoE player who puts in a reasonable amount of both effort to learn the game and time playing can successfully compete at the highest level of GBG in 18 months give or take 6 months.

Fact

Your Guild Leadership is solely at fault for your Guild not being able to compete at the highest level of any aspect of this game.

Also fact.

 

[Just An Observer]

If a new player spends the Diamonds like I did to set up a recursion machine, they can pound out 700-900 points via Negotiations in 7 months based on what I was able to do. Fighting based cities take longer to set up so for faster results in GBG, go with Negotiations since they score 2 points while Fighting scores 1.

 

[Tony 85 the Generous]

You got a Guild you think can't compete. If I had a Guild I think could not compete in Diamonds I'd ...

I spent 2+ years as the day to day manager of a Guild that went from lvl 10 to top 50 pre GBG. I spent 2o16 in ProgE making sure every player who wanted one (35 that year) had a Traz. I spent the first 3 months after GE was released making sure that every player in my Guild had a lvl 5 Obs so we would have a healthy Treasury. I designed a program to acquire and level Arcs for 50 Guildies. I then turned the job of day to day manager over to someone who is much better at it then I am.

I'm also the guy who spent a ridiculous amount of time here learning (not wasting time trying to change the game!) and built another city to experiment, and taught so many players the mechanics, techniques, and philosophy of how to excel as a Guild and as individual players..

That Guild has never had morale problems, has consistently done well in GE and GBG, and has no requirements for either. Our players excel because they want to excel.

When we first got into GvG we started in IA and EMA. When we first got into GEC we strove for 50%, when we got into GBG we started in Gold and worked our way up.

The next time INNO adds to the game we'll analyze it, figure out how to do well at it, and retool our Guild to get there.

You can bet I wont be here asking INNO to change the game to suit my Guild. We won;t need the game to change to do well.

We've always believed that we can do well in anything once we learn how and develope our capability.

That's been true of every successful Guild I've seen.

I'm also the guy who spent 6 months traveling from Guild to Guild learning how different Guilds manage their affairs. And I run three cities all in successful GBG Guilds all with different techniques for doing so.

...do what I've done before Teach players, help them develope their cities, and give them every opportunity to excel.

Until then I'd manage their expectations and assure incremental success in what they do and as they grow.

And stay in the League that best suits my Guilds needs and expectations.

Since you avoided and/or did not answer the question, you agree there is nothing you can do this season to be competitive. Furthermore, you point to me, but I'm not the only one in this same situation.

 

[Tony 85 the Generous]

Any FoE player who puts in a reasonable amount of both effort to learn the game and time playing can successfully compete at the highest level of GBG in 18 months give or take 6 months

Fact

A single player guild cannot be competitive in GBG diamond league. Therefore no single player (as stated) can successfully compete in GBG diamond league. It takes a guild. That is the fact.

Your Guild Leadership is solely at fault for your Guild not being able to compete at the highest level of any aspect of this game.

Also fact.

In any given season, guild leadership has nothing to with the competitive ability of the guild. Long term it does.

The leadership of the guild has little to no effect on the overall strength of the guild. I say little to no effect, as the leadership is responsible for providing efficient modes and mechanisms to allow the individual member to grow. But it is the overall combined strength of the guild that matters in GBG. Not that of one player, a handfull of players, or only the guild leadership.

As this thread relates to the selection of guilds for a season of GBG, if you cannot differentiate between the effects and ability of player versus a guild then there is nothing productive to be added to this conversation.

 

[Vger]

And stay in the League that best suits my Guilds needs and expectations.

In other words....throw the game.

Go Team GO! Let's strive to come in 4'th! GO! GO! GO!
Wait...slow down team or we'll be #1 or #2. Nobody wants to be #2!!! That would stink!

Algona, are you really suggesting that aiming to come in 3'rd or 4'th is a good strategy, even when 1'st or 2'nd are doable? How else do you "stay in the League that best suits my Guilds needs"?

FOE is a strategy game, but when a good strategy is to avoid coming in 1'st or 2'nd, doesn't that suggest that maybe the problem is with the game, not the guilds and players that are figuring out that avoiding winning is a good strategy?

 

[RazorbackPirate]

A single player guild cannot be competitive in GBG diamond league. Therefore no single player (as stated) can successfully compete in GBG diamond league. It takes a guild. That is the fact.

That's not what's being discussed. Being a top competitor in a top guild is what is being discussed. And yes, any player " who puts in a reasonable amount of both effort to learn the game and time playing can successfully compete at the highest level of GBG in 18 months give or take 6 months." And any player who;s done this will be ready and welcomed into any of the top guilds.

As this thread relates to the selection of guilds for a season of GBG, if you cannot differentiate between the effects and ability of player versus a guild then there is nothing productive to be added to this conversation.

And with this, you're quoting and now arguing with yourself. So you're right. "There is nothing productive to be added to this conversation."

 

[RazorbackPirate]

Algona, are you really suggesting that aiming to come in 3'rd or 4'th is a good strategy, even when 1'st or 2'nd are doable? How else do you "stay in the League that best suits my Guilds needs"?

I'll let @Algona clarify for himself, but what I suggest is that you accept you're a Platinum League guild that will occasionally be promoted to Diamond League where you'll be reminded why you're really a Platinum League guild.

Grab the extra rewards Diamond League has to offer while you're there and accept your fate. Instead of trying to change GBG to meet your expectations, why don't you change your expectations to align with the realities of GBG?

 

[Tony 85 the Generous]

In other words....throw the game.

Go Team GO! Let's strive to come in 4'th! GO! GO! GO!
Wait...slow down team or we'll be #1 or #2. Nobody wants to be #2!!! That would stink!

Algona, are you really suggesting that aiming to come in 3'rd or 4'th is a good strategy, even when 1'st or 2'nd are doable? How else do you "stay in the League that best suits my Guilds needs"?

FOE is a strategy game, but when a good strategy is to avoid coming in 1'st or 2'nd, doesn't that suggest that maybe the problem is with the game, not the guilds and players that are figuring out that avoiding winning is a good strategy?

That is exactly what the guilds must do in order to maintain a spot in the league rankings where they are competitive. Again because to win means to advance, not because the guild has gotten stronger.
If you recall (or read back) last season all of the guilds on our GBG map were vying for 3rd, 4th, and 5th. Our guild gave up and just starting attacking everything knowing full well we would be promoted from diamond 2 to diamond 1, and then expecting to get "whupped" and get demoted again. We set out on day 1. made some progress, and got wiped form the board 4 hours later. By noon time it was all over. Next Thursday can't come soon enough. It would appear the other guilds have allied against (don't know why, new comer?) and have us soft locked in our base (feels like COVID quarantine LOL).

I'll let @Algona clarify for himself, but what I suggest is that you accept you're a Platinum League guild that will occasionally be promoted to Diamond League where you'll be reminded why you're really a Platinum League guild.

Grab the extra rewards Diamond League has to offer while you're there and accept your fate. Instead of trying to change GBG to meet your expectations,

Why should a guild be promoted when they are not able to compete? Why do we have to be reminded? Why do we have to sit around and wait 13 days for the season to end so we can compete?
There are no 'extra' rewards in diamond when your guild is not competitive. When you are blocked into your base and do not possess the might to hold a sector for more than four hours, there are less rewards. The amount per reward pack is more but since you can't compete, you can get in the same number of negotiations and fights so you end up with less.

why don't you change your expectations to align with the realities of GBG?

There are two options in GBG realities.
The first reality is that since this is not real life, the rules can be updated. As I have said before and the title states, GBG is unbalanced pitching outmatched guilds together in the same season. The reality is this can be adjusted.
The second reality is to accept that GBG is unbalanced. If you are a platinum league then every 2-3 seasons your guild will be pitted against a gameboard of guilds that will squash you like a mosquito. Because the reality is the points system is based on winning, not on strength. The reality is if a guild does not possess the strength to stay in diamond 1, they can be expected to be bounced from league to league and regularly have a season where you can to little more than sit on your thumbs and tell GBG good bye for 11 days.
Why should we accept the second reality when the first reality is very much available?

 

[Vger]

I'll let @Algona clarify for himself, but what I suggest is that you accept you're a Platinum League guild that will occasionally be promoted to Diamond League where you'll be reminded why you're really a Platinum League guild.

Oh, I accepted that a long time ago. I'm not actually complaining here. I'm more laughing at a game design that encourages people to try not to win. (Other than the very top tier players, of course).

This is INNO's stated goal for the league system:

League System
To ensure that there’s no substantial difference between the participating guilds on each Battleground map, we will have a League System made up of five distinct league categories: Copper, Silver, Gold, Platinum and Diamond.

Who wants to stand up and argue that INNO has achieved that goal? That there are no substantial differences between participating guilds?
I would argue that they probably have, except for Diamond league. There they failed.

I'm fine with the 'suck it up and deal' and 'stop whining' comments. Already dealing, not whining.
But can we at least all admit that INNO failed on the "no substantial differences" front?

 

[Tony 85 the Generous]

Who wants to stand up and argue that INNO has achieved that goal? That there are no substantial differences between participating guilds?
I would argue that they probably have, except for Diamond league. There they failed.

I would argue from personal observation, the problem exists at the border of all leagues. I would say the problem at the platinum-diamond border is the one most spoken of for two reasons. First, because the players are 'senior' enough to voice and able to voice the problem. Second, those same 'senior' players understand the additional game mechanics to see how the alliances (in no way prevented or frowned upon by Inno at this time) effect their [not-ready-for diamond] guild when they are promoted [prematurely] to diamond league.

 

[CommanderCool1234]

I have not said anything in this thread because everything said on it is to long and hard to follow but I will say this, if you don't like the game quit it and don't complain about not being able to compete in GbG, just get to the point were you actually can. My guild has only 5 members above 25 million and our highest member is 75 million, we compete in Diamond league and actually do well. We have been in Diamond for over 6 months and are currently #2 in this GbG. Like Algona's guild we only have a 4 encounter requirment in GE and have no minimum for GbG, but we still manage to get top 3 in GbG and #1 in GE.