Cosmic Raven's HQS - Condensed

Discussion in 'Pending' started by Toolbox Danny, May 11, 2018.

  1. sloppyjoeslayer

    sloppyjoeslayer Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2016
    That is very refreshing to hear, thank you and good luck on however you play.
     
  2. jobu523

    jobu523 Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2016
    Great work. Thanks for doing this.
     
  3. Lauramiller

    Lauramiller Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2017
    I have a question. I’m not really following CR’s master plan, but I do use parts of it, and I’m having trouble getting a clear picture of his strategy post-Colonial Age. How did he decide when to move up to Industrial and how does HQS adapt to the changes in the RQs in the higher ages? I gather he thinks Modern is a good age to park in, but why? What are the goals after you get your quest-support GBs leveled up to 10? I know his guide is unfinished, but would welcome any tips from people pursuing it beyond Colonial.

    I no longer have my second RQ slot in CA and figure I might as well move up, but am not sure what I should aim for next. Is there another double slot situation in Industrial or one of the ages after it?
     
  4. Toolbox Danny

    Toolbox Danny Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2018
    @Lauramiller: CR’s guide says to age up to Indy when all your GBs—Chateau, SMB, LOA, CDM, HS, Traz, SoZ, CoA, and any others—are level 10. Once those are level 10 and you’ve gotten diamonds from each quest, you age up to Indy. You can modify this as it fits your needs, of course, but that’s what his guide advocates doing.

    He also advocates parking in Modern Era and gathering all the goods, coins, supplies, and FPs needed to age up to Future Era, because it’s hard to do HQS in the eras between Modern and Future, because the supply buildings are so big and require 2-lane roads.

    His overall goal appears to be to get to Future Era with level 10 GBs in place from lower Ages. When you get to Future Era, then you will be well-positioned to take particular GBs past 10, becoming a strong GvG player and guildmate.

    What happened to lost the 2nd RQ slot? Are you in the Indy Bonus map and getting those quests, or did advancing in the tech tree bring up side quests?
     
    Lauramiller likes this.
  5. Agent327

    Agent327 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2018
    In every era there always is a supplybuilding that only requires a road. Besides that, you can win special buildings that give supplies and you have one-up kits and renokits. This guide is outdated.
     
  6. Toolbox Danny

    Toolbox Danny Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2018
    I see that I was mistaken about the statement on 2-lane roads. You are correct that the eras between Modern and Future have production buildings that only require one-lane roads. But they are significantly bigger than ME hatters and FE levitation outlets, meaning less buildings fit in the same limited space.

    I’m not sure how special buildings and renovation kits or one-ups changes things, because you can’t do the “produce supplies” quests with special buildings, and renovation kits don’t matter for production buildings.

    Can you clarify? Thanks.
     
  7. Agent327

    Agent327 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2018
    There are special buildings like the beach bar and confectionary that hardly take space and can be brought up with kits to the era you are in. And all they need is a road. Since they are special buildings, they deliver more for he space they take than normal buildings.
     
  8. RazorbackPirate

    RazorbackPirate Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2018
    I've highlighted the key word from your statement above. That word is hard, as in difficult. Within the context of the HQS guide, it also means inefficient, or not worth the effort. It does not mean in any context, impossible as Agent327 seems to imply.

    There are ages that are efficient and allow you to complete a large number of RQs and those are the ages C.R. recommends camping in to take full advantage of HQS. There are other ages that are less efficient and don't allow you to complete a large number of RQs on a daily basis. These are the ages C.R. recommends tech sprinting through, staying just long enough to get the diamonds from each RQ, then quickly moving on to the next efficient age.

    HMA and CA are efficient because they both have production buildings which allow a large number of RQs to be completed every day. What makes them efficient is having both a small footprint, just 3x2, and the lowest population requirement. Coupled with the highest density residential in each age, you can build a huge number of production buildings that need only a small number of houses supporting them.

    Even though both HMA and CA have other production buildings that we could use to complete RQs, We don't use them in HQS, because they are not efficient, having both larger footprints and population requirements. We could not build as many, or complete as many RQs.

    In PME, the first age C.R. recommends skipping on the way to FE, there are three production buildings that could be used to complete RQs. Two that require a 2-lane road and one that just needs a regular road. Yet, the most efficient building, with both the smallest footprint, 5x4, and the lowest population requirement is the junkyard which needs to be connected to a 2-lane road.

    So, I would say no, you were not mistaken with your statement on 2-lane roads, because the most efficient production building in PME to complete RQs does require a 2-lane road. You are also correct that the most efficient production buildings in those skipped ages are significantly bigger than the ME hatters C.R.'s guide has us sprint from, and the FE leviathan outlets he has us sprint to. Since it is the HQS guide, H for the word heavy, any age that cannot be heavily quested, we tech sprint through.

    As C.R also makes abundantly clear at the beginning of the guide, Special Buildings are NOT always Valuable Buildings. As such, the vast majority of special buildings such as Beach Bar and Confectionary are not used with the HQS strategy because doing so would reduce the number of RQs we could complete each day and reduce the number of goods, medals and FPs we would produce.

    So once again, we have Agent327 jumping onto a thread, and making statements like the following,

    trying to sound all authoritative, but just proving, once again, he has no idea what he's talking about.

    Rant On - Why the other posters on this forum continue to feed this troll is beyond me. I wish they'd stop. Then maybe then every single thread on this forum would no longer get derailed for 2, 3, sometimes 5, or more pages, becoming filled with this troll's snarky remarks while he argues with anyone who'll indulge him over every little thing in this game just to feed his damaged ego. - Rant Off
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2018
    Titris Thrawns and icarusethan like this.
  9. Agent327

    Agent327 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2018
    Where do I imply that?????

    So tell me where I am wrong.

    I can win special supply buildings that always only need a road, that, when you look at the number of tiles they take always deliver more than the regular supply buildings and that I can use in every age possible.

    Tell me how that is not better.

    Since this guide was written a lot has changed. While the basics still work there are now better buildings and better ways.

    Just look at the GB's you are supposed to built. Built an Atomium in CA? You got to be crazy to do that!
     
  10. Toolbox Danny

    Toolbox Danny Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2018
    The problem with the beach bar and confectionary is that you can’t do a “produce supplies” RQ like you can with clockmakers or other regular supply buildings. Of course their supplies can be used for UBQs, but there is no RQ for special buildings like the two you mentioned.
     
  11. Toolbox Danny

    Toolbox Danny Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2018
    Well stated, and a good correction to my earlier reply.
     
  12. Agent327

    Agent327 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2018
    Yes you can. They are production buildings, that can do the exact same as the clockmaker.

    Clockmaker is 3x2, requires 68 population and gives you 320 supplies in 1 hour.
    Colonial Beachbar is 3x2, requires 64 population and gives you 344 supplies in 1 hour.
    Colonial Confectionary is 4x2, requires 130 population and gives you 790 supplies in 1 hour.
    Colonial Fanshop 2x3, requires 78 populattion and gives 508 supplies in 1 hour, plus it provides 87 happiness.

    There now are better buildings you can use.

    Now when I look at this

    I can not agree with it. In OF I have 3 RQ's that require me to produce 6x a 24 hour production. For this I do not have to unlock any technology, nor do I need to produce supplies. I have 6 terracefarms that produce 5 fp's every 24 hr. So when they are about to deliver I bring up those 3 RQ's and start collecting my farms. With a Blue Galaxy in my city that brings a nice number of fp's and I complete three RQ's. After that I start the other RQ's again.
     
  13. Toolbox Danny

    Toolbox Danny Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2018
    I wonder if the miscommunication is in the difference between RQs in OF compared to the other ages. In CA, you have three "produce supplies" quests:

    Produce 2 Turret Clocks
    Produce 2 Full Riggings
    Produce 2 Barrels of Tobacco

    The same is true in other ages, that you are required to make specific productions from the production buildings of that age to fulfill the quests. A beach bar, confectionary, or fan shop won't make turret clocks, full riggings, or barrels of tobacco, so you must build the regular production buildings that match the quest you want to do. And if you want to build a clock maker, sail maker, or tobacco plantation, you need to unlock that tech first.

    For example, today I completed 37 "Produce 2 Turret Clocks" quests, and none of the other two. If I tore down all my clockmakers and replaced them with confectionaries, I would be able to complete none of the above quests, only the "Gather 110K Supplies" quest, which I completed 18 today with my clockmakers. knocking down my clockmakers and replacing them with special production buildings might raise how many supplies I get, but it would severely cut down how many quests I could finish daily.

    The original guide by CR had posts saying that in OF is different, that the quest is "Produce 6 24-Hour Productions," meaning you could use special buildings or even blacksmiths if you wanted to. Since you are in OF, you can use confectionaries, beach bars, fan shops, or any special production building that someone in another age can't. You don't even need to produce supplies, because you can use terrace farms and make 24-hour FP productions. So the quests function quite differently for someone that is not in OF.
     
  14. Agent327

    Agent327 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2018
    I think that might be it, but the list of RQ's does not hold those.
     
  15. Lauramiller

    Lauramiller Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2017
    Thank you for this. It’s exactly what I was looking for.

    I have all my relevant GBs at 10, although none of the military GBs (apart from a L2 St. Marks just because I like its looks), and FoD instead of HS. Where special buildings actually make a difference in the pre-Modern ages is, in my experience, with sanity+. I won a crazy number of Elephant Fountains last summer, and they provide most of my sanity, along with supply, coin, defense and attack boosts. I recently realized that they’re all still in Iron Age/EMA, and that’s where my stock of Reno Kits will really come in handy!

    I lost the 2nd RQ by advancing into the Industrial Age bonus map for a quest. I knew what I was doing, but wanted to stock up on a bit more Colonial goods before moving up to Industrial. Then I realized that I don’t really have a plan after that, and became curious about what HQS folk do once they move past Colonial. Right now, I’m just leveling my Arc, which gets kind of boring at times. A change would be nice, but I know that the 24-supply quests become more demanding, going from 2 turret clocks to 4 of whatever the Industrial Age supply buildings make. I’d like to be prepared for any similar challenges and to have some sense of the next spot to camp in.
     
  16. RazorbackPirate

    RazorbackPirate Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2018
    TBD, thanks for the work you've done to create this Condensed HQS Guide. I hope I can add to the body of knowledge about the HQS style of play. It's unfortunate that Agent327 decided to jump on and start posting about this strategy that he clearly know so little about.

    Knowing there are those who come to the forums in search of accurate information to improve their game, and knowing Agent327 will never admit he's wrong about anything, against my better judgement, I'll once again jump into the fray.

    Let me clarify on behalf of Toolbox Danny, who unfortunately, used incorrect terminology. There is no "produce supplies" RQ in any of the ages I've looked at. There are "Gather x amount supplies" which in the case of CA is 110k, and there are "Produce X <Name of 24-Hour supply production>" quests. I am fairly certain it's the 24 hour production quest that Toolbox Danny is referring to in his statement above. (Danny, jump in to clarify or correct me, I don't want to put words into your mouth.)

    In each age, there is a unique "Produce 24-hour" RQ tied to each of the standard production buildings of that age. In CA there are 3, "Produce 2 Full Rigging" which can only be completed using Sailmakers, "Produce 2 Barrels of Tobacco", which can only be completed using Tobacco Plantations, and "Produce 2 Turret Clocks", which can only be completed with Clockmakers.

    Since Clockmakers are the most efficient production building in CA for the purposes of HQS, with both the smallest footprint, 3x2, and the lowest population requirement, "Produce 2 Turret Clocks" is the foundational quest for the HQS strategy in CA. For every pair of Clockmakers in our city, one "Produce 2 Turret Clocks" can be completed. To complete as many "Produce 2 Turret Clocks" RQs as possible every day, we build as many pairs of Clockmakers as can possibly fit into our city.

    In CA, we also get the added benefit of a second RQ slot, giving us the ability to complete 2 RQs at the same time. The first RQ slot is set to "Produce 2 Turret Clocks", the second RQ slot to "Gather 110k supplies". When we collect, each pair of Clockmakers completes one "Produce 2 Turret Clocks" RQ, while the supplies generated completes one "Gather 110k supplies" for each 110k supplies produced.

    Then the supplies produced and the coins generated to complete as many UnBirthday Party Quests (UBQs) as possible. While other quests such as "Collect x coins" and "Spend x Forge Points" might also be completed throughout the day, "Produce 24". "Gather supplies" and UBQ, a will typically be completed the most.

    The HQS seeks to maximize the number of RQs we can complete every day. By doing so, it maximizes the number of goods, medals, and FP pack rewards we receive. Following HQS, every decision we make about our city can be easily evaluated by asking two basic questions. "Will this allow me to complete more RQs every day" and/or "Will this produce more goods, more medals, or more Forge Points every day?" If the answer to either or both is no, you don't do it. Simple as that.

    So let's evaluate the Agent327's statement below from an HQS standpoint.

    His first mistake is is to evaluate the supplies produced on an hourly basis and doing so reveals how little he understands about the HQS. Why? Because HQS never uses hourly productions. HQS only uses 24-hour productions so we can complete the "Produce X <Name of 24-Hour supply production>" RQ. Since none of the "better building" he recommends has a "Produce X <Name of 24-Hour supply production>" RQ tied to it. Every 2 Clockmakers replaced with Agent327's recommended "better buildings" loses me one "Produce 2 Turret Clocks" RQ.

    Agent327's suggestion immediately fails the test. Following his recommendation I'd complete less RQs each day. So clearly these are not "better buildings".

    To be fair, we could use these "better buildings" to complete the generic "Gather 110k supplies" which can be completed using any production building. But following the HQS strategy we complete these as "bonus" RQs completing these in the background by using the supplies produced by the Clockmakers as we complete the "Produce 2 Turret Clocks" RQ. So using Agent327's "better buildings" we also lose the completion of a secondary RQ in the background, and the secondary "bonus" quest now becomes our primary quest. That doesn't really sound better to me.

    So now Agent327 really has his work cut out for him if he wants to continue to justify his insistence that these are "better buildings" to use for HQS. Given the loss of the primary quest entirely, and the loss of the secondary "bonus" quest, which now becomes the primary quest, He now needs to show how I can even complete the same number of quests I could do using clockmakers with his "better buildings"

    In some ways, the answer is really just a math problem. What would it take for me to complete as many "Gather 110k supplies" RQs, as I would complete using Clockmakers on a 24-hour cycle and completing both the "Produce 2 Turret Clocks" RQ and the "Gather 110k supplies" RQ in the background? All the numbers are known so he should at least be able to figure that out.

    But there's also a number of intangible variables that need to be factored in. If the answer from a math standpoint is using 1-hour productions collected x number of times per day, how do you offset the convenience of one collection every 24 hours? Having one collection every 24 hours also means 80-90% of my production buildings are motivated by the time I collect from them every day? How many more production runs are needed to offset that?

    Even If Agent327 can somehow justify the math to achieve the same number of RQs per day, and hit to my life spending more time in game. A typical CA HQS city has about 100 Clockmakers. All of his recommended "better buildings" are special buildings released for an event and only available during that event, I can't even get one of those buildings as it stands, how do I get 100 of them? Just for giggles, let's say they're released in the next event, exactly how many diamonds will it cost me to get about 100 of these "better buildings" and how do you justify that expenditure given the fact that every other building tied to and recommended by HQS is a default, in-game, regular production building that just needs coins and supplies to build?

    You get my point.

    Agent327 then quotes a section of the HQS guide that talks specifically about the "Produce X <Name of 24-Hour supply production>" RQ, a foundational RQ in the HQS, and goes on to say,

    And herein lies the rub which points to the fundamental problem with virtually everything Agent327 posts in the forum regardless of topic or thread. He takes a little bit of knowledge and without really knowing what he's talking about extrapolates that to the entirety of the game then posts his assumptions in his signature authoritative style trying to look all "Mr. Know it All." When his errors are then pointed out to him, the thread quickly goes off the rails as Agent327 tries to defend himself as he parses language, nitpicks over every little thing in the game, in the original post, in the responses from others on the forum going on and on and on, page after page after page, until no one can remember what the OP was about until everyone simply abandons the thread out of sheer exhaustion.

    But enough of the personal commentary, let's get back to the facts.

    As it turns out when you get to OF, there is a bug, a flaw, whatever you want to call it, that somehow made it into the full release. In every age and every era prior to OF, each of the "Produce X <Name of 24-Hour supply production>" RQs names a specific item produced only by a specific production building only available in that specific age. In BA it's "Produce 2 helmets" only produced by Blacksmiths, "Produce 2 tomatoes" only produced by a Fruit Farm, and "Produce 2 pots" only produced by a pottery. With HMA Alchemists it's saltpeter in CA it's Turret Clocks.

    But for some reason, in OF, is just a generic "Finish a 24 hour production 6 times" and any production building in the game can be used. Who knows why, maybe a developer got sick, maybe they forgot to update the generic placeholder, it doesn't matter. But players can exploit the hell out of it. There's pictures here on the forum of one city that's just a sea of Blacksmiths. GBs. blacksmiths and not much else. Literally hundreds of them which are used to complete this one quest.

    Being in OF, Agent327 gets to to take advantage of the flaw and can do everything he says, but what he suggests, can't be done in any other part of the game.

    So knowing about this one little thing, yet not understanding the entirety of the Heavy Questing Strategy, why specific recommendations are made, and likely not even caring, jumps onto this thread to rebut a perfectly acceptable and answer from Toolbox Danny to another player.

    And in that signature, authoritative, look at me, I'm all that style, that only Agent327 can pull off gives us this little gem.

    No data, no reasoning, just and I'm paraphrasing here "I know what I know, you don't know squat, that guide is crap." And once again, Agent327 shows us how in being right, he couldn't be more wrong.
     
  17. RazorbackPirate

    RazorbackPirate Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2018
    One of the things you've shown me with your personal adaptation of the HQS strategy, is that not every age C.R. recommends tech sprinting through or around should be avoided. You've shown that LMA can be a very productive place to camp and that the second RQ slot can be unlocked and used in LMA for an even greater advantage.

    When I found the original HQS guide, I had just gotten pushed into LMA by the tech requirement of the Spring Event. I was sceptical when you began posting about your experience in LMA, but you were able to show LMA is not necessarily an age to be avoided, or simply quested for diamonds. You supported your experience with a good amount of analysis, which for me has added quite a bit to the HQS body of knowledge.

    Having missed the opportunity to build my city around HQS in HMA, your experience encouraged me to park in LMA and build it out there. Without that, I would have pushed into CA as quickly as I could and do the build out process there. Instead, I'm happily parked in LMA putting the finishing touches on the build out.

    Because of your play style, GE level 4 each week, negotiating and never fighting, you're in a unique position to reevaluate the Ages and Eras moving forward. You have a weekly demand for goods that exceeds most players, and to me, any age that can supply all of the goods you consume weekly entirely through RQs, might be worth camping in, or at least not tech sprinting through.

    I would like encourage you bring that same level of analysis to each age as you approach it and give us your take on it. C.R. was always a bit dogmatic in his approach to HQS, but you've shown the value of a fresh perspective.

    I'm currently leveling my St Marks beyond level 2, because my coin supply continues to lag behind my supplies. But if level 2 gives you all the coins you need and you've got enough goods from elsewhere, I see no reason to take it higher. I did build HS, it's allowed me to eliminate all cultural and decos and gives me a few FPs every day, but I'm still unsure if it was the best decision.

    Good luck in moving up. I look forward to your perspective.
     
    Lauramiller likes this.
  18. Agent327

    Agent327 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2018
    In OF there are no such RQ's anymore.

    Or it just reveals how little you know about the game. I am using an hourly basis, cause that is the game standard. All I do is compare. You are right on the last part. I did not take into account the produce 2 turret clocks RQ. Like stated before, there are no such RQ's in OF and I wass judging based on that, which I already admitted before your longwinded reply.
     
  19. Lauramiller

    Lauramiller Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2017
    I’m very flattered by this, and will contribute what I can but am still just learning myself! My St. Marks in both my cities (LMA & CA) is at 10, and my impression is that i do a lot more Collect Coins quests than most HQSers, probably 15 or more a day. In my LMA city, have two slots open on Collect Coins and Collect Supplies most of the day, and I will spam UBQs on one of them to fill up the other, trying to keep one empty at all time so that it can fill up the other when collections don’t quite add up to the total. But probably everybody knows to do this. At any rate, my coins/supplies quest may even outnumber my 24-hr production quests, depending on RNG. And St Mark gives a lot of goods. I have both the LoA and the RAH in both cities at 10, and still have more coin that supplies. All those buildings make a lot of goods.

    I think the reason why CR discounted LMA is that he felt strongly that you should not unlock “dead end” tech tree segments so that you can save them for event quests and not be forced by an event to move up an age. To get the two slots in LMA, you have to reasearch Optics, which is one of those dead ends. He may not even have realized you can get 2 slots in LMA for that reason. But event quests nowadays almost never require unlocking a tech, so saving the dead end ones seems less essential.

    With Cooperages in particular, when your quest-support GBs are at 10, 2 hampers fulfill both the 24-hour productions quest AND the entire Collect Supplies quest, which is sweet. I swapped them for breweries after I got the diamonds, but I kind of miss those Cooperages.
     
  20. JCera

    JCera Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2017

    Uh, you get to use any production building in OF. So it is actually even easier. Fill the city with blacksmiths.

    The entire HQS strategy is focused on the 24-hour productions. You apparently need to do some reading before commenting on these threads as an authority.


    (And FWIW- I've openly been anti-Cosmic Raven's HQS. I use RQs to my advantage, but CR's guide is very cultish and there are many things I simply don't agree with.)
     

Top