[Guide] Dulahan's guidelines to lvl 80 arc rush (and beyond), starting from bronze age

[Salsuero]

How many FPs would you suggest I keep in FP packs. I know they are useful for sniping neighbors for 1st or 2nd on buildings others haven't seen yet, but the reward for that seems kind of low. I have 250 at the moment and am wondering if I'm not better served by investing most of them now and saving like 50-100 for sniping.

Save as many as you can. You'll use them in the future. You're thinking way too small and near-term. The future is FP-intensive, whether it be the tech tree or GB investments. You can never have too many FPs in inventory. Risk from collection, profit from packs.

 

[DeletedUser29218]

I'm in the middle HMA stage (lvl 4 LOA, lvl 2 STM, lvl 3 and climbing Chateau). How many FPs would you suggest I keep in FP packs. I know they are useful for sniping neighbors for 1st or 2nd on buildings others haven't seen yet, but the reward for that seems kind of low. I have 250 at the moment and am wondering if I'm not better served by investing most of them now and saving like 50-100 for sniping.


Also, how many alchemists did you have when you were completing 100 DQs?

The amount of FP reserves depends entirely on yourself and your surroundings, no one but you can answer that question.
You need to have as little as posible so you snowball your GB faster, while keeping as much as posible for snipping neighbours and target GBs in your guild trades. The most relevant factors are how good are the sniping targets, how often you do "arc rounds", how and when you do your guild swaps and how high is your FP bar and pack generation.
Having said that, I disagree with Salsuero. The strategy I shared here has a high rate of FP packs generation, thus it is easy to build a large stock when you need it. My advice is to have a small pool when you don't need much, and expand it only as your arc and/or time playing grows.

As for how many alchemists I had when I was doing 100+ daily RQ, I do not remember. But this is my city layout, updated yesterday.

The sheet reports 88.2 daily quests from city collection (the layout tab is missing 5 Spend FP quests and 23.6 Feedback UBQ quests). Spend FP quest from arc snipes/swaps are not accounted here, the number would be much bigger if it did.
Notice that the Produce 24h from alchemists accounts only for ~15% of the total quests.

 

[Salsuero]

I disagree with Salsuero

Well, I'm not surprised, but my FP inventory works well for me. The many people that ask me and are sad about not being able to invest their FPs -- they don't have enough to do anything when speed is important. So, they lose out on many opportunities. I never worry about spending them when I choose to. My Arc is at level 65 and I'm doing well leveling up my other GBs. I'm also in the same age as the one asking the question, so I feel like I can speak to where he is in the game just as well as anyone else in HMA can. To each his/her own strategy. I stick by my words.

 

[DeletedUser29218]

Chapter 7 is out!

link

 

[DeletedUser29218]

To each his/her own strategy. I stick by my words.

Yep, it is completely fine to disagree. We do not have any metrics or any way to argument which is better.

For all we know, we might even be doing the best for our cities. You should read the guide some day though.

Edit: I'm usually around 20-25k in reserves + invested FPs. When my reserves get below 2k, I stop participating in our lvl 80 club for some hours, until I get them back. No problems from my side as well.
But I do not think this info helps anyone. As I said, each server and person is different.

 

[DeletedUser31498]

Well, I'm not surprised, but my FP inventory works well for me. I never worry about spending them when I choose to.

Given that you never are close to running out, don't you think that implies you have too many? The point isn't that you're doing well or not, it's about maximizing. Clearly, you would be better off if you invested a bit more. Where the line is, is tough to say of course. But clearly you're too conservative if you never run low.

250 FPs does seem low though, I'm guessing poster isn't an advanced sniper by any means.

 

[DeletedUser32824]

250 FPs does seem low though, I'm guessing poster isn't an advanced sniper by any means.

I'm not. When I say sniping, I'm talking about someone who has like 30 FPs left on a GB and has no one in for a 25FP reward. I put in 15 and make 10. Definitely not huge gains. I've never spent more than 50 at one time out of my reserve, and when I did, I knew I would get it back.

 

[DeletedUser31498]

Right, in early hoods that's about as good as it gets. With a good friends list the opportunity arises for higher-return snipes, and once you get an Arc it really takes off, since your break-even jumps considerably.

 

[DeletedUser32824]

Right, in early hoods that's about as good as it gets. With a good friends list the opportunity arises for higher-return snipes, and once you get an Arc it really takes off, since you'r break-even jumps considerably.

Yes! I am looking forward to that. I think I've answered my own question here. Since my return on investment for saving FP packs is low (not a lot of good snipes for me at the 100-200 fp range) I think I'll stick around 100 in reserve. I get about 3 packs of 5 per day, sometimes more, so it wouldn't take me super long to build some of those FPs back up into packs.

Another question here: Is there a benefit to doing FP swaps on non-arc GBs? Currently the math works out to saving me FPs if I just get all arc80 people to grab 1-4th on my GB with whatever else I put in compared to doing FP swaps and getting some FP rewards. The self-leveling with arc80s is like 25-30% more efficient. I can see where this is beneficial when you want to keep generating Arc BPs to unlock more levels, but for some of my other GBs, they will be at lvl 10 or so for a while.

 

[Salsuero]

Given that you never are close to running out, don't you think that implies you have too many? The point isn't that you're doing well or not, it's about maximizing. Clearly, you would be better off if you invested a bit more. Where the line is, is tough to say of course. But clearly you're too conservative if you never run low.

Go bug someone else with your "opinions". Don't tell me what "the point" is. You don't even make good points 99% of the time. I'm doing fine and I'm happy. I never worry about forge points. I know MANY players who would love to be in my position. Too many? Much better than too few. You should try that nugget of advice with billionaires... that they have too much money. Maybe they'll buy what you're selling.

 

[DeletedUser31308]

Go bug someone else with your "opinions". Don't tell me what "the point" is. You don't even make good points 99% of the time. I'm doing fine and I'm happy. I never worry about forge points. I know MANY players who would love to be in my position. Too many? Much better than too few. You should try that nugget of advice with billionaires... that they have too much money. Maybe they'll buy what you're selling.

"The point" of this guide is to maximize your progress in this game. You can progress exceptionally fast and still have room to improve. But it is false for you to claim that you can't benefit from investing more FPs than you do. You would benefit, FPs in inventory have a ROI of 0 unlike swapped or sniped FPs.

That being said, it is fine that you are happy with the level of progress you are getting. It is your right as an individual to set your own bar for how much progress is "enough" to make you happy. But, if you are giving advice to others, it is right to give advice that is as objective as possible. They have their own bar, there's no reason for them to be happy with the level of progress you are happy with. If you know that there is a way to improve your rate of progress, but choose to advise against that option, you are giving bad advice.

I should mention that I've found much of your advice useful, and I'm grateful for it. However, every now and then, I see you repeat this claim that you're happy with your bank of FPs so it should be good enough for anyone. That, simply, is untrue.

 

[DeletedUser33149]

Very interesting read!

The cost of leveling the CF to lvl10 got me thinking. For a quick 80 Arc rush, would it not be quicker to forgo much of the UBQ setup altogether? Lets say you dont build the CF, stM, LoA or any happiness building, saving around 110 tiles (depending how much space the happiness costs). You use this space to just build more Alchs (and the population for it). But more importantly you'd save a couple thousand fp, depending on the deals you can get and how far you lvl each building but I estimate it around 4k.

Now the amound of RQ's you could do each day would decrease very drastically. But if the RQ's generate you around 35fp a day this might just be worth it. The break even point for building all these GB's + the goods for the CF would only be reached after a substantial amount of time, and you'd be able to build quite a few extra alchemists with the additional space.

Some deterrents for this trimmed down approach would be that the fp spent in lvling these GB's arent a pure waste since they would be usefull after your Arc reaches 80 ofcourse. And what scares me is that you say the Alchs only provide ~15% of your RQ's Anyway, I thought it was an interesting option, I might do some math to check this approach later.

 

[DeletedUser32872]

Very interesting read!

The cost of leveling the CF to lvl10 got me thinking. For a quick 80 Arc rush, would it not be quicker to forgo much of the UBQ setup altogether? Lets say you dont build the CF, stM, LoA or any happiness building, saving around 110 tiles (depending how much space the happiness costs). You use this space to just build more Alchs (and the population for it). But more importantly you'd save a couple thousand fp, depending on the deals you can get and how far you lvl each building but I estimate it around 4k.

Now the amound of RQ's you could do each day would decrease very drastically. But if the RQ's generate you around 35fp a day this might just be worth it. The break even point for building all these GB's + the goods for the CF would only be reached after a substantial amount of time, and you'd be able to build quite a few extra alchemists with the additional space.

Some deterrents for this trimmed down approach would be that the fp spent in lvling these GB's arent a pure waste since they would be usefull after your Arc reaches 80 ofcourse. And what scares me is that you say the Alchs only provide ~15% of your RQ's Anyway, I thought it was an interesting option, I might do some math to check this approach later.

4k isn't that many FPs when you're talking about 200+ days of leveling Arc, where levels alone start to add up to more than 4k FP each as you get towards the middle of this strategy. The real metric to gauge such a strategy by would be FP/day, and whether you earn back all of those FPs in the amount of time it would take you to get a level 80 arc. I believe that math has already been done, with an L10 CF easily paying itself off within 200 days if not less when using a field of alchemists + LoA for supplies and StM + housing / SoK for UBQs. That doesn't even include the added benefits of all those goods produced via CF (@L4 you earn 9 goods/RQ, vs 5 w/o) which can be used to negotiate GE each week and earn even more FP.

If the calculation on CF efficiency hasn't been done, let me know and I'll throw a speadsheet together to illustrate the ROI.

 

[DeletedUser29218]

Very interesting read!

The cost of leveling the CF to lvl10 got me thinking. For a quick 80 Arc rush, would it not be quicker to forgo much of the UBQ setup altogether? Lets say you dont build the CF, stM, LoA or any happiness building, saving around 110 tiles (depending how much space the happiness costs). You use this space to just build more Alchs (and the population for it). But more importantly you'd save a couple thousand fp, depending on the deals you can get and how far you lvl each building but I estimate it around 4k.

Now the amound of RQ's you could do each day would decrease very drastically. But if the RQ's generate you around 35fp a day this might just be worth it. The break even point for building all these GB's + the goods for the CF would only be reached after a substantial amount of time, and you'd be able to build quite a few extra alchemists with the additional space.

Some deterrents for this trimmed down approach would be that the fp spent in lvling these GB's arent a pure waste since they would be usefull after your Arc reaches 80 ofcourse. And what scares me is that you say the Alchs only provide ~15% of your RQ's Anyway, I thought it was an interesting option, I might do some math to check this approach later.

Yep, I also thought about that. Somewhere in the guide I say that I question the viability of last 1-3 lvls of CF. However, I still think CF should always be build (this is neither tested nor calculated, it is a guess based on my experience). There are several reasons for that:

1- You already mention it, after finishing the 80 arc you get 3 good GBs in your city.
2- Goods (this is very important). I do not think you can consistenly finish lvl 4 GE without these 3 GBs, and GE is a great source of FPs and diamonds. And even if you do, you need to produce HMA goods to trade for Arc and the other GBs, as well as donating to treasure whatever requirements your guild, events and daily challenges.
3- Diamonds. Definitely not the most important factor because you'll have get the diamond reward before building CF, but special events have also the chance of providing them.
4- CF at lvl 10 provides a high amount of coins. This means more than 4 non-feedback daily quests early game, when you have too many supplies (1 from gather coins, 3.125 from ubqs).
5- Let's assume you have enough goods. Then... I don't know, you might be right. I'm not interested in doing the math myself, but I'll check yours if you share it.
Don't be demoralised because produce 2x24h is a small part of my quests now, if you forego CF, StM and LoA it will be much more significative. Also, take into account that my city has many TF and other special buildings, in the past I was doing more RQs than now (at least, RQs that don't include snipping )

 

[DeletedUser31308]

Yep, I also thought about that. Somewhere in the guide I say that I question the viability of last 1-3 lvls of CF. However, I still think CF should always be build (this is neither tested nor calculated, it is a guess based on my experience). There are several reasons for that:

1- You already mention it, after finishing the 80 arc you get 3 good GBs in your city.
2- Goods (this is very important). I do not think you can consistenly finish lvl 4 GE without these 3 GBs, and GE is a great source of FPs and diamonds. And even if you do, you need to produce HMA goods to trade for Arc and the other GBs, as well as donating to treasure whatever requirements your guild, events and daily challenges.
3- Diamonds. Definitely not the most important factor because you'll have get the diamond reward before building CF, but special events have also the chance of providing them.
4- CF at lvl 10 provides a high amount of coins. This means more than 4 non-feedback daily quests early game, when you have too many supplies (1 from gather coins, 3.125 from ubqs).
5- Let's assume you have enough goods. Then... I don't know, you might be right. I'm not interested in doing the math myself, but I'll check yours if you share it.
Don't be demoralised because produce 2x24h is a small part of my quests now, if you forego CF, StM and LoA it will be much more significative. Also, take into account that my city has many TF and other special buildings, in the past I was doing more RQs than now (at least, RQs that don't include snipping )

I personally think CF lvl 5 is the place to stop. It brings your goods from RQs up to 10, which won't increase until CF lvl 8 (increasing goods gained by 10%). The FPs for those 3 levels aren't worth the goods increase, from what I can tell. Haven't done the math though.

 

[DeletedUser33149]

Thanks for the replies!

Hadn't thought about the GE! Thats defintely a major consideration. Can you give an indication how much goods would be required to work through it every week?

And 4k fp might not be that much, but if the RQ's generate 35fp a day like mentioned in the article I think at the very least its close.

 

[ODragon]

I personally think CF lvl 5 is the place to stop. It brings your goods from RQs up to 10, which won't increase until CF lvl 8 (increasing goods gained by 10%). The FPs for those 3 levels aren't worth the goods increase, from what I can tell. Haven't done the math though.

It may also depend on the FP you have in your inventory. The arc swap group I am in is pretty slow (only 70 I day) so I got all GBs to L10 and am pumping up the CF as my other building, currently working on L15. Arc is at 22, going to start 23 on the next round of swaps.

Personally, I've found that having the CF to be amazing. As someone who doesn't spend diamonds, I couldn't be happier with it.

 

[DeletedUser33149]

I personally think CF lvl 5 is the place to stop. It brings your goods from RQs up to 10, which won't increase until CF lvl 8 (increasing goods gained by 10%). The FPs for those 3 levels aren't worth the goods increase, from what I can tell. Haven't done the math though.

Sounds very reasonable

 

[DeletedUser32824]

Very interesting read!

The cost of leveling the CF to lvl10 got me thinking. For a quick 80 Arc rush, would it not be quicker to forgo much of the UBQ setup altogether? Lets say you dont build the CF, stM, LoA or any happiness building, saving around 110 tiles (depending how much space the happiness costs). You use this space to just build more Alchs (and the population for it). But more importantly you'd save a couple thousand fp, depending on the deals you can get and how far you lvl each building but I estimate it around 4k.

Now the amound of RQ's you could do each day would decrease very drastically. But if the RQ's generate you around 35fp a day this might just be worth it. The break even point for building all these GB's + the goods for the CF would only be reached after a substantial amount of time, and you'd be able to build quite a few extra alchemists with the additional space.

Some deterrents for this trimmed down approach would be that the fp spent in lvling these GB's arent a pure waste since they would be usefull after your Arc reaches 80 ofcourse. And what scares me is that you say the Alchs only provide ~15% of your RQ's Anyway, I thought it was an interesting option, I might do some math to check this approach later.

With my current setup (lvl 3 StM, lvl 6 CF, lvl 4 LoA) I can, on average, complete 63.38 RQ per day. 25 are alchemists and 38 are RQ. My CF is at 100% so I'm getting double quest returns. Without CF you would need double the number of my alchemists (100) to even match my alchemist RQ rewards. To match my total RQ rewards (63*2) you would need 126 requests per day, or 252 alchemists. And I haven't even finished leveling Stm or CF.

It's also not only about how many FPs the RQs can give. Goods are important because they let you finish the GE with ease, allowing you to net SSWs and terrace farms which will further increase FP generation.

I negotiated through all of GE3 and 4 last week and got like 250 diamonds, like 50+ FPs and a couple store building/one ups from idols. Without all the goods from my RQs and chateau, that wouldn't be possible.

Your head is in a good spot--questioning the current system--but the math doesn't quite back it up. Definitely keep asking questions, and anyone can feel free to correct me if I'm wrong about anything.

Hadn't thought about the GE! Thats defintely a major consideration. Can you give an indication how much goods would be required to work through it every week?

GE 3/4 (and part of 2) last week took about 200 of each good for me.(that's 1500 HMA goods total if you trade down 2 for 1 to EMA) GE4 is like 5-8 goods per attempt during a negotiation. The tavern boost is a must (15 min recommended). I bought a couple more attempts with medals to maintain my boost. With my current CF level and number of RQs I might not be able to support GE4 ever week until I get my CF and UBQs higher to generate enough goods. I should be generating 1589/week which is just scraping by. And you don't want to be on the last negotiation of GE4 and run out of a good with no time left on your boost.

I personally think CF lvl 5 is the place to stop. It brings your goods from RQs up to 10, which won't increase until CF lvl 8 (increasing goods gained by 10%). The FPs for those 3 levels aren't worth the goods increase, from what I can tell. Haven't done the math though.

I think HQS brings up a good point about gold generation. Currently I have 1.3mil more supplies than gold. Whatever I can do to increase gold generation in my city and help balance out the UBQs I can do, that will be stellar. 1.3mil is 162 UBQs that I'm missing out on because my coin generation is skewed. I'm thinking of getting chateau to 9 and then working on STm and see if I don't balance it out before needing to do CF10. I want my gold output to be higher than supplies until I can catch up, then I might level LoA up a bit more to bring balance back.

 

[DeletedUser31308]

I think HQS brings up a good point about gold generation. Currently I have 1.3mil more supplies than gold. Whatever I can do to increase gold generation in my city and help balance out the UBQs I can do, that will be stellar. 1.3mil is 162 UBQs that I'm missing out on because my coin generation is skewed. I'm thinking of getting chateau to 9 and then working on STm and see if I don't balance it out before needing to do CF10. I want my gold output to be higher than supplies until I can catch up, then I might level LoA up a bit more to bring balance back.

I can see CF 8 being a good option if you really do need the gold. Personally, I'm not playing totally free to play so I have quite a few SoKs as well as SSWs. My gold generation is double my supplies generation, so I don't even consider increasing gold to be among my top priorities. Eventually, this will be the case for anyone following this guide (as you replace Alchemists with FP production buildings).