GVG was half dead and now need to compete with the new kid on the block(GBG）

[Fishercat.]

I think this has gotten lost: I have no opinion about whether or not Inno is going to get rid of GvG. I am merely surprised by their continued heavy weighting of GvG in guild rankings if that's their intent.

 

[Johnny B. Goode]

Our members? Not a lot. But we're neither a whale-heavy guild, nor one that has an extremely strong GvG presence at present. We just know that one is necessary if we want to advance.

Advance where? In the standings? They mean absolutely nothing. Especially since they are so dependent on GvG. Over 70% of FoE players are on mobile according to Inno, and that number was stated a couple of years ago, it's probably well above 70% now. That's around 3/4 of the active player base that does not even have access to GvG. You should meditate on that reality for a while. Then explain to me how influential a player can be if they stress a game function that most players don't have access to, and even fewer bother with.

I do know whales that really, really like GvG. A lot. And I think their opinions matter to Inno.

No, you don't know that. You know that some whales like GvG. And if they were as influential as you seem to think, and if their opinions mattered to Inno as much as you seem to think, then explain why Inno has for years repeatedly stood by their decision to let GvG wither on the vine. I won't hold my breath. You don't seem to realize that your statements fly in the face of the obvious facts.

 

[RazorbackPirate]

I do know whales that really, really like GvG. A lot. And I think their opinions matter to Inno.

Their feet matter to Inno. If no one walks, no one cares. Opinions matter only to the extent they affect player behavior and player behavior speaks louder than any opinion. Spend any time on the Beta forum and that becomes quite clear.

I am merely surprised by their continued heavy weighting of GvG in guild rankings if that's their intent.

I'm not. To change the weighting of GvG in guild rankings would require investment into GvG, something Inno stated they're done with. The next time Inno invests money in how GvG affects guild rankings, it will be because they need to remove it from guild rankings because they're removing it from the game.

 

[Flavius Belisarius]

I understand RP's POV, but if the replacement for GvG with replace all the CODE pipes, maybe, they could get a better or different version.
I don't can't won't speculate on what INNO wants to do next, but they surely won't risk taking a hit on older players walking.

 

[Algona]

I have no opinion about whether or not Inno is going to get rid of GvG. I am merely surprised by their continued heavy weighting of GvG in guild rankings if that's their intent.

Fishercat, some good stuff in this thread.

GvG weighting in Prestige is a holdover from the original design of GvG. Pure speculation two reasons INNO hasn't changed it: Scared to fiddle with code or the Prestige is still important to GvG interest. Prolly a combination of both.

I think it's undeniable INNO pulls the plug if GvG is no longer profitable, but one factor no one has ever mentioned, prolly because we'll never know, is how much it costs INNO to maintain GvG.

Kudos to you for mentioning another much more subtle factor. It ain't just what folks spend on GvG as whether folks playing GvG are spending on the game. Good stuff.

Subtle stuff, but I suspect a decisive factor.

After all GvG doesn't offer a lot in the way of advancing a city. The joy that some folk find in playing GvG, an opportunity for individual RP farmng, and as you noted a massive advantage in Guild Ranking for strong GvG Guilds.

Those benefits are enough to still have people playing GvG. That may be also a factor for some in continuing to play the game?

Assuming GvG maintenance is not a trivial amount, INNO must be constantly analyzing the play and overall spending habits of GvG players.

So if there is a significant expense to GvG, (One more possible factor we'll never know in that decision, how much will it cost to take GvG out of the game?) INNO will pull the plug on GvG when the people playing GvG are no longer spending on the game.

I don't have a clue whether that will happen tomorrow or never.

Like any other change to the game I'll worry about it when it happens.

Until then, I don't think it's unreasonable for ambitious Guilds to consider developing GvvG potential. It might just attract the kind of players that Guild wants.

 

[Fishercat.]

Advance where? In the standings? They mean absolutely nothing.

To you. Are you a guild leader? Do you bear any significant responsibility for keeping your guildmates happy? Are you forgetting that this is not only a social game, but also a competitive one? Not everyone cares about that, but some do, deeply. Top guilds are disproportionately peopled by both whales and competitive players.

Then explain to me how influential a player can be if they stress a game function that most players don't have access to, and even fewer bother with.

When a player is deeply respected by multiple people that collectively guide hundreds of other people, I'd call that influential. (Note: I'm not that guy. But I'm really happy to be on the same server with him.)

No, you don't know that. You know that some whales like GvG.

Um. Yes. Which is why I said "I do know whales that really, really like GvG." I'm sorry it wasn't clear I was referring to the whales I know.

And if they were as influential as you seem to think, and if their opinions mattered to Inno as much as you seem to think, then explain why Inno has for years repeatedly stood by their decision to let GvG wither on the vine. I won't hold my breath. You don't seem to realize that your statements fly in the face of the obvious facts.

Repeating because I think it got lost: I have no opinion about whether or not Inno is going to let GvG die.

 

[Johnny B. Goode]

To you. Are you a guild leader? Do you bear any significant responsibility for keeping your guildmates happy? Are you forgetting that this is not only a social game, but also a competitive one?

I am not currently, but I have been in the past, both before and after GE was introduced. I know that this is a social game for many, a competitive game for some, but the overwhelming deciding factor in players continuing to play is fun. Do they enjoy it. There is a tiny minority of players who really, really enjoy GvG. Most are probably long time players, and some are "whales". But the key is "fun". That's why it's only the top guilds that are ultra-competitive in GvG. Because it's no fun being a medium to small fish in GvG. It's fun for the top guilds, and it's fun for the guerilla guilds that only care about occasional forays or maybe holding a couple of sectors per map. Now a question for you. You mentioned way back in the thread that your only experience is Birka. Is that true? Your entire argument is based on experience one world? Leading one guild? Yet you speak as if your statements are valid game-wide. Have you ever experienced a guild that had no interest in GvG? And stated so? I have. Multiple times. On multiple worlds. So I have at least as much insight into guild dynamics as you.

Repeating because I think it got lost: I have no opinion about whether or not Inno is going to let GvG die.

Then why do you seem to be arguing that they won't?

 

[BruteForceAttack]

GVG is here to stay till Inno decides to either nerf prestige that GVG gives for global ranking and make it GbG heavy. Right now there is cap on how much prestige you can get from GbG however there is no cap (yes i know there is a cap which is number of sectors you can take) in GVG.

For now 5% of the players decide the Top Guild ranking.

I think Inno should cap GVG prestige to be same as GbG..

 

[Fishercat.]

You mentioned way back in the thread that your only experience is Birka. Is that true?

*Yes.. that's why I said it.

Your entire argument is based on experience one world? Leading one guild?

What argument?

Yet you speak as if your statements are valid game-wide.

I strongly express opinions, while clearly stating what my experience is, and that I have no idea how representative it is of Inno's business as a whole. I'm really not sure why that comes across to you as speaking as if my statements are valid game-wide.

Have you ever experienced a guild that had no interest in GvG? And stated so? I have. Multiple times. On multiple worlds. So I have at least as much insight into guild dynamics as you.

Sort of. Most of my guildmates are uninterested in GvG. I'm uninterested in GvG until my city is in a position to support it, which it isn't, yet. *I do have a new diamond farm in a very undemanding guild on another world. They don't do GvG at all.

Just because you've done it doesn't mean you're necessarily any good at it, or particularly insightful. It means you have experience; that's different. I have no idea whether or not you are a good, insightful guild leader, and don't mean to suggest you're not. Merely that having done it doesn't automagically grant insight into guild dynamics.

Then why do you seem to be arguing that they won't?

Given that I've stated at least three times that I'm not, I am really puzzled why it seems like that to you.

 

[MJ Artisan of War]

When INNO abandons GvG i predict they will simply remove access to it. No need to spend money removing code if no one can access it.
Likewise they won't concern themselves with how it affects guild rank. Over time that will be overcome by everyone continuing to play Battlegrounds...
We will all talk about GvG strictly in the past tense...

 

[Johnny B. Goode]

*Yes.. that's why I said it.



What argument?



I strongly express opinions, while clearly stating what my experience is, and that I have no idea how representative it is of Inno's business as a whole. I'm really not sure why that comes across to you as speaking as if my statements are valid game-wide.



Sort of. Most of my guildmates are uninterested in GvG. I'm uninterested in GvG until my city is in a position to support it, which it isn't, yet. *I do have a new diamond farm in a very undemanding guild on another world. They don't do GvG at all.

Just because you've done it doesn't mean you're necessarily any good at it, or particularly insightful. It means you have experience; that's different. I have no idea whether or not you are a good, insightful guild leader, and don't mean to suggest you're not. Merely that having done it doesn't automagically grant insight into guild dynamics.


Given that I've stated at least three times that I'm not, I am really puzzled why it seems like that to you.

You stated once that you play on one world. Now you add that you've started another. But in all your other posts you make blanket statements that appear on their face to be relevant game-wide. That's how they read to anyone who missed the one post that mentioned your limited perspective.

You've stated your intent three times and then all your other posts completely contradict it. You're not fooling anyone with that disingenuous approach, we've all seen it many times before.

As far as my experience/insight/knowledge, doubt it all you want. Makes no difference to me. I don't need validation from you or anyone else here.

 

[Algona]

When INNO abandons GvG i predict they will simply remove access to it. No need to spend money removing code if no one can access it.

Agreed. Assuming the code was well written and well documented to begin with.

Given some of the recent silly mistakes introduced into the game along with a history of such mistakes, and that the GvG code appears to be especially difficult to modify, I'd say there is a not insignificant chance that maybe it won't be a simple choice of just shutting off the button to go to GvG.

Like shutting off the GvG portion of recalc? It took INNO a fair amount of time to make the first change to recalc time. And I suspect this would be a little more intricate.

BTW, just thought of this. I dunno about anyone else, but I use GvG regularly to look at Guild Power collected the previous day. But I'm sicko perv like that.

Again, we'll never know if there is an expense with shutting off GvG. Horrifyingly, I can't help but think that maybe INNO might not know, or worse, be able to figure out, if there is any expense there either. Naaah, couldn't (me looks nervously over shoulder at RQ delay bug) possibly be. Right?

 

[Fishercat.]

You stated once that you play on one world. Now you add that you've started another. But in all your other posts you make blanket statements that appear on their face to be relevant game-wide. That's how they read to anyone who missed the one post that mentioned your limited perspective.

And "anyone," of course, means you. Because your experience is universal. I do understand now, though. Because you missed a key thing I said, I'm responsible for your having misinterpreted most of my following posts. I get it now, thanks for clarifying.

You've stated your intent three times and then all your other posts completely contradict it. You're not fooling anyone with that disingenuous approach, we've all seen it many times before..

And when exactly did I say "I think Inno won't abandon GvG?" Oh, wait. I didn't. That's how you interpreted what I said. Incorrectly. I generally take what people say at face value, and have no reason to disbelieve the statements of more experienced players who say Inno has repeatedly said that's what they're going to do. You might try taking what I say at face value, rather than presuming you need to puzzle out what I really mean.

As far as my experience/insight/knowledge, doubt it all you want. Makes no difference to me. I don't need validation from you or anyone else here.

What part of "I don't mean to suggest.. " was unclear? I was taking issue with your statement that because you've also been a guild leader, you have as much insight into guild dynamics as me. For all I know, you're twenty times as insightful about guild dynamics as I am. No clue. I was pointing out that your argument didn't hold water, that's all.

I'm glad you don't need to seek validation in the forums; that would be a pretty unpleasant state to be in.

 

[Johnny B. Goode]

And "anyone," of course, means you. Because your experience is universal. I do understand now, though. Because you missed a key thing I said, I'm responsible for your having misinterpreted most of my following posts. I get it now, thanks for clarifying.



And when exactly did I say "I think Inno won't abandon GvG?" Oh, wait. I didn't. That's how you interpreted what I said. Incorrectly. I generally take what people say at face value, and have no reason to disbelieve the statements of more experienced players who say Inno has repeatedly said that's what they're going to do. You might try taking what I say at face value, rather than presuming you need to puzzle out what I really mean.


What part of "I don't mean to suggest.. " was unclear? I was taking issue with your statement that because you've also been a guild leader, you have as much insight into guild dynamics as me. For all I know, you're twenty times as insightful about guild dynamics as I am. No clue. I was pointing out that your argument didn't hold water, that's all.

I'm glad you don't need to seek validation in the forums; that would be a pretty unpleasant state to be in.

LOL
Do you have a backup camera, or are you doing this blindly? I can almost hear the beeping. You know, my stepson used to start out statements with, "No offense, but...", when he knew that what he said next would offend whoever he was talking to. I don't just have experience with guilds, I have experience with people like you who say stuff and then say it doesn't mean what you think it means when they can't produce valid counter-arguments. But that's okay, you're clearly not one of those "influential" players you referred to. (And, for the record, I don't claim influence over anyone here.)

 

[CaptainKirk1234]

Agreed. Assuming the code was well written and well documented to begin with.

Given some of the recent silly mistakes introduced into the game along with a history of such mistakes, and that the GvG code appears to be especially difficult to modify, I'd say there is a not insignificant chance that maybe it won't be a simple choice of just shutting off the button to go to GvG.

Like shutting off the GvG portion of recalc? It took INNO a fair amount of time to make the first change to recalc time. And I suspect this would be a little more intricate.

BTW, just thought of this. I dunno about anyone else, but I use GvG regularly to look at Guild Power collected the previous day. But I'm sicko perv like that.

Again, we'll never know if there is an expense with shutting off GvG. Horrifyingly, I can't help but think that maybe INNO might not know, or worse, be able to figure out, if there is any expense there either. Naaah, couldn't (me looks nervously over shoulder at RQ delay bug) possibly be. Right?

You are right... It does worry me that coders don't know what they are doing... In the real world too. Eventually there will be so much code, and so few "actually" good coders that it will be too much to handle. Now I don't mean to put down Inno's coders, clearly they are very talented people... and I don't know exactly what the context was or how hard it is to fix the RQ delay, but if they can't fix a tiny RQ bug like you mentioned... what problems could there be in the future?

 

[Fishercat.]

LOL
Do you have a backup camera, or are you doing this blindly? I can almost hear the beeping. You know, my stepson used to start out statements with, "No offense, but...", when he knew that what he said next would offend whoever he was talking to. I don't just have experience with guilds, I have experience with people like you who say stuff and then say it doesn't mean what you think it means when they can't produce valid counter-arguments. But that's okay, you're clearly not one of those "influential" players you referred to. (And, for the record, I don't claim influence over anyone here.)

If you're trying to say I offended you, I apologize. If you're not, I'm at a loss for what your stepson has to do with our conversation.

Perhaps.. just perhaps.. when people say you misunderstood them, they actually have a better idea of what they meant when they said it in the first place than you do. It strikes me that your approach to communication is whack. This is how it appears to me:

1) Search for hidden meanings.
2) Fail to follow the conversation. (optional)
3) Claim the hidden meaning you found is what the speaker really meant.
4) Discount their attempts to clarify.
5) Demand they prove to your satisfaction that they meant the simplest interpretation of what they originally said.

I approach communication as a cooperative game where one of the win conditions is everyone understanding each other, which requires a basic level of trust in the other players. It seems to me like you don't.

 

[85gt]

GvG is a big part of my gameplay, if GvG was not here I would not be playing the game anymore.
GvG has problems but could be fixed to keep those that like it alive in the game.
The 96 hour rule is just stupid, seems like you just stop playing the game for 4 days and GbG is only 3 days, dumb just dumb.
The 24 hour reset really needs to be every 12 hrs, this would give some of those sleeping at reset a chance to get in on the action without staying up all night.
This 96 hour garbage was just a way for the big guilds to keep the little guilds members from bouncing around to take them down, 24 hours away from the game is long enough.

 

[Fishercat.]

The 96 hour rule is just stupid, seems like you just stop playing the game for 4 days and GbG is only 3 days, dumb just dumb.

I don't do GvG. What's the 96 hour rule you're talking about? I thought GvG was an ongoing daily thing, rather than having discrete sessions like GE and GBG.

 

[Johnny B. Goode]

I don't do GvG. What's the 96 hour rule you're talking about? I thought GvG was an ongoing daily thing, rather than having discrete sessions like GE and GBG.

When you leave one guild and join (or form) another, you can't do GvG for 96 hours. Although his reasoning on why it was implemented is way off. (Interesting that you don't know this basic GvG rule. Kind of destroys your credibility in a GvG discussion.)

This 96 hour garbage was just a way for the big guilds to keep the little guilds members from bouncing around to take them down, 24 hours away from the game is long enough.

No, the 96 hour rule was an attempt to deter large guilds from sending out one or more members temporarily to form "ghost" guilds to get around certain GvG mechanics.

 

[Flavius Belisarius]

Agreed. Assuming the code was well written and well documented to begin with.
Given some of the recent mistakes introduced into the game along with a history of such mistakes, and that the GvG code appears to be especially difficult to modify, I'd say there is a not insignificant chance that maybe it won't be a simple choice of just shutting off the button to go to GvG.
Like shutting off the GvG portion of recalc? It took INNO a fair amount of time to make the first change to recalc time. And I suspect this would be a little more intricate.

Logical analysis. Since this feature/code (GvG) was implemented from the beginning, there probably are some unintended consequences trying to remove/rewrite the code around GvG.
I'm surmise that when GvG was first approved, the unintended occurrence of "super Guilds" or "farming" were not part of the equation. I believe they saw the major complaints arising from Super Guilds and Restricted play focused on RECAL and designed GBG. (Intending Leagues to level the field between "small" and "large" Guilds.)
I hope INNO's statements that there will be no changes to GvG reflects the near impossible task of fixing or modifying without corrupting the core system.
On the other hand, I want to believe that INNO will be looking to some feature in the future that builds upon the BETA PvP that will engage Guilds directly competing against in some fashion beyond GBG. IF INNO determines that inter-guild cooperation and communication is worthwhile and can be channeled into a different Guild versus Guild Arena significantly different than GBG, great. GBG is Guild competition but without the RECAL time constraint (mitigated by the attrition factor) and Inter-Guild cooperation is facilitated without everyone being online at the same time (assisted by Guild Leader rites and sector designation signs). Also, the incentives/rewards are vastly superior to individuals versus gaining benefits through prestige increasing your Guild-Level member benefits.
That's my opinion. I play the game. I don't own INNO.
FOE has become a part of my RL because I personally knew (outside the game) several of the players and subsequently have become friends with players met in the game and socialize in RL with them. We all play with different goals but we all like the game.