Players leaving

[Outlaw Dread]

Capitalism can be a real bittle, too bad everyone needs to make a buck. Tough to find an alternative that works over the long term.

This has nothing, nothing to do with capitalism. There are many ways to run a business in a capitalist marketplace, some are profitable and competent, some are not. Equally, businesses can develop a reputation for good customer service, and others don’t. The ideal for longevity in a capitalist system is being profitable while also retaining happy customers who keep wanting to spend.

At least for quite a few senior players on FoE forums and in guilds, Inno’s reputation for being customer-friendly is on a decline. And the recent financials seem to say that Inno is also not doing well in retaining, let alone growing, revenues.

Could this be due to them being bought over? Impossible to know how much independence Inno has to set long-term strategy under its new owners. But whomever is behind the recent decisions to extract more cash from existing players, it seems that they are not succeeding in keeping existing customers happy enough to continue.

A recent article on Udonis offers some interesting thoughts on why player retention is an important component of the success of a business.
Search for “ You Should Analyze Your Game’s Player Lifespan – Here’s Why”, which notes:
“Your goal is to encourage positive feelings and prolong the lifespan. …. Obviously, the longer the player lifespan, the better.”

 

[CDmark]

Some information on Summer and Fellowship events. I was able to get the Buccaneers Bay easily. The event mechanics are simple too, but many don't like the shuffle. Currently, I will have no problem getting both the Golden upgrade for Summer building and the golden upgrade for the Heroes tavern, both are easy to get. Now, there is some time involved, about an hour per town, with 4, 4, 10 hours wait times, so time commitment, it is St Paddys mechanism but I am finding it easier, could be I am used to it. SOOOO, maybe Inno has listened and made things obtainable without a PhD in Mathematics from MIT and $15 or diamonds. Some things will still be diamonds, those extra buildings or silver/gold league status. I think that is fair and what we are used to seeing. Lets see where the Viceroy Villa shows up late tonight.
As far as people leaving, I have no idea. Some people take breaks from my guilds, most due to RL things, almost all come back, it isn't something I track at all.

 

[Ebeondi Asi]

I checked my Friends lists, Lost two on average (but I remove players in the 2 to 7 if they have not aided) ...as usual.

I would say it is like the premise that "What you believe to be true, becomes true, for you" A scientist wrote that. whose opinions I respect.
So for me not believing anyone is leaving.. no one is leaving. For players who are certain a lot of players are quitting they get a lot of data players leaving.
Maybe take the Red Pill next time?

 

[Dursland]

MTG is not a gaming company , they are an investment company period.

It's not all MTG either - Inno has a track record of doing this to their own games as well. Just look at Grepolis, the former "MMO of the Year" in 2012. They pushed too hard with monetization there and the game died.

 

[Johnny B. Goode]

Some information on Summer and Fellowship events. I was able to get the Buccaneers Bay easily. The event mechanics are simple too, but many don't like the shuffle. Currently, I will have no problem getting both the Golden upgrade for Summer building and the golden upgrade for the Heroes tavern, both are easy to get. Now, there is some time involved, about an hour per town, with 4, 4, 10 hours wait times, so time commitment, it is St Paddys mechanism but I am finding it easier, could be I am used to it. SOOOO, maybe Inno has listened and made things obtainable without a PhD in Mathematics from MIT and $15 or diamonds. Some things will still be diamonds, those extra buildings or silver/gold league status. I think that is fair and what we are used to seeing. Lets see where the Viceroy Villa shows up late tonight.
As far as people leaving, I have no idea. Some people take breaks from my guilds, most due to RL things, almost all come back, it isn't something I track at all.

Most of this post is off topic. The last two sentences are technically on topic, but hardly add anything to the conversation.

I checked my Friends lists, Lost two on average (but I remove players in the 2 to 7 if they have not aided) ...as usual.

I would say it is like the premise that "What you believe to be true, becomes true, for you" A scientist wrote that. whose opinions I respect.
So for me not believing anyone is leaving.. no one is leaving. For players who are certain a lot of players are quitting they get a lot of data players leaving.
Maybe take the Red Pill next time?

I wanted to know if there was any in-game indication of players leaving other than the apparent reduction in average neighborhood size. The only way I, in solo guilds only, could have any real indication was to track the number of inactives on my friends list. I entered that endeavor with the belief that players were leaving, but with an open mind to what that data would show. I have never kept close track of how many friends have gone inactive at any one time, but it is rare for anyone in the top half of any of my friends lists to go inactive. And it is also rare for more than a couple of lower half friends to go inactive at one time unless I've recently added a bunch of newer friends. Which is not the case here. I haven't added more than a handful of friends across all my cities for weeks, if not months. Now, since last Wednesday when I first checked, 172 have been over 7 days inactive. That's an average of 14 per world. And percentage-wise it's even more striking due to the relatively small size of my friends list. The other thing that strikes me about the results is that as the 7 day inactives are removed, the yellow dot inactive list isn't shrinking accordingly. That tells me that more players are leaving the game all the time, that it's not a one time phenomenon.

What I'm saying is that the data is telling me that players, including high ranking, long term players, are leaving the game. Some are players who have been on my friends list for well over 5 years. If anyone is letting their beliefs color their interpretation of the data, it's not me.

 

[Just An Observer]

Most of this post is off topic. The last two sentences are technically on topic, but hardly add anything to the conversation.

I wanted to know if there was any in-game indication of players leaving other than the apparent reduction in average neighborhood size. The only way I, in solo guilds only, could have any real indication was to track the number of inactives on my friends list. I entered that endeavor with the belief that players were leaving, but with an open mind to what that data would show. I have never kept close track of how many friends have gone inactive at any one time, but it is rare for anyone in the top half of any of my friends lists to go inactive. And it is also rare for more than a couple of lower half friends to go inactive at one time unless I've recently added a bunch of newer friends. Which is not the case here. I haven't added more than a handful of friends across all my cities for weeks, if not months. Now, since last Wednesday when I first checked, 172 have been over 7 days inactive. That's an average of 14 per world. And percentage-wise it's even more striking due to the relatively small size of my friends list. The other thing that strikes me about the results is that as the 7 day inactives are removed, the yellow dot inactive list isn't shrinking accordingly. That tells me that more players are leaving the game all the time, that it's not a one time phenomenon.

What I'm saying is that the data is telling me that players, including high ranking, long term players, are leaving the game. Some are players who have been on my friends list for well over 5 years. If anyone is letting their beliefs color their interpretation of the data, it's not me.

There is data and then comes figuring out the "why". Do you think it has something to do with the receding pandemic? Economic circumstances? Something new and better came along? Dissatisfaction with how FoE is? You do not have a survey to help you figure out the answers but I like to think you could make some decent guesses as to which elements are present and rank them.

Once you do this, let's see if anyone else has their "guesstimate cap" on. My guess is that if we have enough good estimators putting in their opinions, we will have a close to the mark answer or answers.

My guessed ranks:

1-Pandemic fading, making for fewer new players to replace losses
2-Dissatisfaction
3-Economy
4-Players found something to do they liked better
5-Any other miscellaneous reason

 

[Ebeondi Asi]

One added reason: Players no longer "working from home' instead they have to go to workplace. Certainly would slow down some players activity.
Another reason is players dying/getting severe illness

 

[Johnny B. Goode]

There is data and then comes figuring out the "why". Do you think it has something to do with the receding pandemic? Economic circumstances? Something new and better came along? Dissatisfaction with how FoE is? You do not have a survey to help you figure out the answers but I like to think you could make some decent guesses as to which elements are present and rank them.

Once you do this, let's see if anyone else has their "guesstimate cap" on. My guess is that if we have enough good estimators putting in their opinions, we will have a close to the mark answer or answers.

My guessed ranks:

1-Pandemic fading, making for fewer new players to replace losses
2-Dissatisfaction
3-Economy
4-Players found something to do they liked better
5-Any other miscellaneous reason

My guess is that the pandemic fading is the least likely reason. It's been fading slowly for over 2 years now.
I only see two on your list (other than the generic #5) that make any sense. Dissatisfaction would be my #1 with "found something to do they like better" as #2, although most who use #2 would probably have looked for something better because of dissatisfaction.
Economy is always an issue, of course, but this is technically still a free to play game. I would think money reasons within the game would be more of a factor than money reasons in real life. I mean, if economic reasons were a valid choice it would have happened 3 years ago when the pandemic started and people were losing their jobs.

One added reason: Players no longer "working from home' instead they have to go to workplace. Certainly would slow down some players activity.
Another reason is players dying/getting severe illness

People started going back to offices long ago. And people are always dying or getting severe illnesses, just not all at once.

Now if someone who has tracked the number of people going inactive and can show that it's been an ongoing issue to this degree, I am open to discussing that. But just trying to dredge up fairly unlikely reasons for the exodus we're seeing isn't much of an argument.

 

[CDmark]

Most of this post is off topic. The last two sentences are technically on topic, but hardly add anything to the conversation.

Actually it is directly on topic. In the beginning, MKpapa posted (hey, I figured it out)

The issue is not with game being slow.
The recent changes all can be grouped in 2 parts:
- every event introduces buildings with insane stats that require either diamonds or real money to have fully upgraded;
- nerf of rewards especially diamonds to force players spend more real money.
Both together mean that you have to spend real money to just stay on par, or to slowly fall behind.
Somehow I felt this is happening during WInter event, and stopped spending real money. Let's see where it goes from here, but so far I am very disappointed.
My guess is that the next hit will be on diamond farms - nerf the diamond production of WW and FoY, and may be limit diamonds only to a city where it was obtained.

So, the Summer event did not require money to get the Golden upgrade. Currently, the Fellowship event is giving the Summerhold Manor Gold upgrade AND the Heroes Tavern Gold upgrade as part of normal play, no diamonds OR $15 needed. Let's see what they did with the Viceroy Villa tonight. So, those potentially leaving due to the money grab issue, which it is, may see that Inno has made a change.

The last 2 sentences have to do with the red dot, 7 days inactive. If guild members of mine take a month off, they show up red. They didn't "leave the game", they are just inactive for whatever reason. They end up coming back (most). I have seen people inactive for months, so I consider them gone, just didn't delete the account. I am pretty sure if some one quit, deleted the account, we wouldn't see anything, just the friends list is reduced by 1 for everyone player quitting. I never tested it but I recall someone on my friends list was gone, he didn't unfriend me, and I looked, he left the game. Now, the number of inactive players increasing, yes, I have seen it too even before March, April, nothing to do with the seasons.

 

[Johnny B. Goode]

So, the Summer event did not require money to get the Golden upgrade.

Still off topic. Word is that several changes are being made between Beta and live with this event.

Currently, the Fellowship event is giving the Summerhold Manor Gold upgrade AND the Heroes Tavern Gold upgrade as part of normal play, no diamonds OR $15 needed.

And again, that's in Beta, not live.

The last 2 sentences have to do with the red dot, 7 days inactive. If guild members of mine take a month off, they show up red. They didn't "leave the game", they are just inactive for whatever reason. They end up coming back (most). I have seen people inactive for months, so I consider them gone, just didn't delete the account. I am pretty sure if some one quit, deleted the account, we wouldn't see anything, just the friends list is reduced by 1 for everyone player quitting. I never tested it but I recall someone on my friends list was gone, he didn't unfriend me, and I looked, he left the game. Now, the number of inactive players increasing, yes, I have seen it too even before March, April, nothing to do with the seasons.

So you've "seen it before" and your guild members take a month off? Yeah, that must be unique to your guild. I've been playing 8 years and haven't seen that, even when I was in large guilds. And it's just conjecture to think that many people who leave the game actually delete their accounts. Some may, but most probably just quit playing. Maybe they're leaving it open to return at some point, or maybe they just don't think it's worth the bother Who knows? Certainly not you nor I.

Again, this is 30% of my friends list that has gone inactive in less than two weeks. 19 in the last 5 days. And the yellow dot inactives have barely gone down, which means that players are still moving from the active to the inactive list at a steady rate. Justify your disbelief however you want, but the facts don't depend on your belief. (Also, as a side note, 16 of the 19 that went over 7 days inactive since Wednesday are on my active worlds where I aid and Tavern sit regularly. only 3 were on my Diamond worlds. In fact, 83 of the 172 total red dots have been on my active worlds. An average of 16 per world. My Diamond worlds, with 89 over 12 worlds, average a loss of just under 7.5.)

 

[Expletive Deleted]

I haven't been super thrilled with some of the developments of late. I'm not planning on leaving any time soon. I still have goals to reach.

That said I can see why some are leaving. Though if you've been around long enough. Someone will leave for every change. It was that for the all ages gvg, superlevelling gbs to 'unfair' levels, arc, foe+, so on and so on.

I am curious as to when it will tip.

One question I'd like to pose for others though is that, at some point in the future. There will be an announcement that says the new age will be the last. When that happens, how long will you last?

 

[Emberguard]

One question I'd like to pose for others though is that, at some point in the future. There will be an announcement that says the new age will be the last. When that happens, how long will you last?

I'll quit when I either run out of reasons to stay or just stop giving myself challenges in new cities. There's every possibility I could quit without ever reaching whatever is the current last Age as I find far more fun in starting new cities than I do getting through the Ages anyway

 

[Outlaw Dread]

MTG is not a gaming company , they are an investment company period. They do not bother with the internals of a takeover. They answer to the shareholders only and that is who all the changes are for , it has nothing to do with the customers. They set the metric to hit on a specific investment item and if it doesn’t hit that then they sell it off or strip the patents out and close it. Inno could be a car parts company for all MTG cares.

Well, you may want to tell MTG that: seems they have a different mission statement that's focused on gaming .....
"Welcome to MTG! We are an international, mobile-first, gaming group that offers players all over the world a wide range of popular game franchises. ...Our mission is to build an international gaming village where entrepreneurs can come together to enjoy a thriving ecosystem of tech and knowledge, enabling them to accelerate their businesses. At the same time, we want to make sure that the gaming studios that make up MTG continue to make great games and retain their unique culture and feel."

 

[MKPapa]

MTG are active investors. They buy small gaming studios that have developed games that have shown monetization potential, and after the purchase they look for ways to increase ROI, and this does not necessarily mean the game improvements.
They do not buy startups, they only buy when they see they can start making money right away.

 

[MJ Artisan of War]

MTG shops for Games/Geese with Golden Egg potential....
Then they buy them and bleed them to death...
Luckily for them, there are many Games/Geese to slaughter....

 

[Winblad]

I agree completely that Inno appears to be wanting this game to die and dedicated players to go elsewhere, due to their increasing greed, which destroys ALL things. This latest Summer Event is by far the lamest, requiring a player to purchase (or waste) lots of diamonds to obtain the items "won" through it. Nearly 3,000 diamonds to gain access to what was already supposedly won or earned is ridiculous, expecting players to fork out more money than Microsoft or other well established game developers ask for, but Inno wants players to pay this amount for each and every Event to get what they already thought they were going to "win." Bad form Inno. Just like Zynga's Mafia Wars, greed will probably destroy this game when it was pretty good.

 

[Winblad]

People like to complain
-
Play the game, or don't
If you don't like something, well that kind of sucks

- - -

I have to much to do, if the game displeases me, I'll quit, open up a time slot for something more productive

- - -

I believe most players complain because of the amount of time they invested
To that I say, who cares
It could all be erased in a second
Is there any actual productive point to this game, because in theory ( besides cheap dopamine ) its more harmful than good, as all games are
-
so eat your microwaved food, or go without dinner
Its up to you, I'm sure we're all tired of this nonsense



p.s: I just realized the original poster just joined yesterday, as of May 31, 2023 today, makes the post shameful in a way, joining a community just to spit on it

The new summerhaven manor is a crazy awesome event building btw, 4x4 w/ FP packs

Sounds more like sucking breaking wind to me... nothing relevant to the greed Inno is exhibiting by extorting excessive monetary contributions for diamonds to obtain what they already felt they were "winning" within the Events.

 

[Winblad]

The issue is not with game being slow.
The recent changes all can be grouped in 2 parts:
- every event introduces buildings with insane stats that require either diamonds or real money to have fully upgraded;
- nerf of rewards especially diamonds to force players spend more real money.
Both together mean that you have to spend real money to just stay on par, or to slowly fall behind.
Somehow I felt this is happening during WInter event, and stopped spending real money. Let's see where it goes from here, but so far I am very disappointed.
My guess is that the next hit will be on diamond farms - nerf the diamond production of WW and FoY, and may be limit diamonds only to a city where it was obtained.
I am less affected by ads, because mostly play on PC, but can feel your pain when I open in smartphone and get those minute long ads all over the place.

I agree with you wholeheartedly, as this echoes the private conversation I had with the owner of Zynga (Mafia Wars) before taking the company public. At issue was the extortion of real money by dedicated players in order to maintain their status and competitiveness within gameplay. Another way to put it... greed.
-
If you look throughout history, greed tends to destroy anything, relationships, businesses, and even games.
-
The rate of attrition is going to eventually kill this game if Inno is determined to choose to exist solely on the basis of expecting players to fork out hundred of dollars for diamonds each year. When the number of players drop too low, they'd have to increase the amount of money from each player, which is unsustainable for a game that's supposedly free to play, and players can choose to pay a little here and there, creating more of a level playing field.

 

[Winblad]

Nope. I complain because what used to be a great game is going down the tubes. And players coming here just to disparage other players' very real issues with what's going on are not helping anyone. If the game is so great for you guys, then go play it and leave us to our complaints. Honestly, do you all have nothing better to do than be cheerleaders for Inno's long slide into oblivion?

This has been stated at least twice, but I've seen no data to back it up. Kind of hypocritical to dismiss my post as irrelevant simply based on your unsubstantiated "it's normal" statement. I've been playing over 8 years and I've never noticed a drop in activity during the summer months. Your conjecture is not fact, even though you state it as if it was.
EDIT: I forgot the biggest reason that your criticism of my post it bogus. It's wasn't even summer yet when these players quit playing.

Thanks for stating things truthfully... Inno is indeed getting too greedy.

 

[Winblad]

I've connected with some players personally, outside of this game, which is great. One player played the game with his wife, bot friends with me within the game. When I heard they were heading out to D'land, I offered to meet them with one of my grandkids. We had a great time. Changes pushed both of them out of this game.

I've also connected with one of the arguably highest level players in this game, with over 10.5 billion points, and we speak over the phone from time to time. He provided a lot of useful pointers that have allowed me, and my son (who I enticed to play a few years ago), to do much better in FoE.

I suppose the bottom line is this, maybe Inno only wants players with deep pockets to participate within the Events, because they only reward those who spend money there. Kind of unfortunate, because the observational judgments are normally, "Inno doesn't care about me unless I spend lots of money." Unfortunately, this is likely true, because it's a business.

However, part of what makes a game successful is the number of players engaged within it, and Inno spent a LOT of advertising dollars online to attract more players. If they continue to extort money from players, the rate of attrition increases, more money needs to be spent to advertise to bring in new players, who may or may not stick around for a fraction of the time the dedicated players who chose to leave. Hence, a greater rate of churn, which is great in a store, not so great in an online game.

Ultimately, this becomes a downward spiral, which I feel has already started. The new players, IMJ, stick around for shorter periods of time than those who started years before GE and other elements (some of which have come and gone), perhaps because they have greater short term expectations, then leaving because it's either too difficult or going to take so long. The database running this game could become overloaded with players no further than the first few Ages/Eras, where things are much more difficult to gain traction for higher level GBs, etc. Primarily due to the lack of FPs generated daily, placing primary importance for getting that Arc to level 80 (or greater).

I just wish Inno wasn't so greedy when it comes to the Events, because they become of less interest with each subsequent variation, often demanding more and more diamonds (also known as realy money, to obtain them).