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Total Ban on Abortion

Discussion in 'Debate Hall' started by mamboking053, May 17, 2019.

  1. mamboking053

    mamboking053 Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2018
    If New York decided to ban abortion, I wouldn't be angry about it. I can recognize the clear moral danger of abortion- even though I would argue banning abortion doesn't solve any problems because abortion is a symptom of the real problem, not the cause. Those causes, I imagine, will get ignored for the most part.

    But a total ban on abortion- including rape? That's bat-crap crazy to me. That's a clear example of religious extremism. No, they're not chopping peoples heads off, but they don't have to in order to be extreme.

    I've long heard about how the American south is co-ruled by the Church. I've never been further south than Virginia so I couldn't really weigh in on that, but I heard it gets so bad that people argue to have academic books either revised or blocked to fit their religious world view or allow that world view to remain a viable option "emphasized" in the classroom. I've heard that such religious communities can put serious pressure on people to conform to their way of beliefs despite our nations overall view on personal freedoms. I don't know if any of this is true, but from what just passed out of Alabama, I really do wonder...

    Maybe Russia influenced our government, though. There are no other lobbyists that influence our government, I'm sure. :rolleyes:

    * Had a talk with some people recently and my viewpoint on abortion was changed to generally being against general abortions, but I also put it to the people I was talking to that the problem clearly was not abortion, and that outlawing abortion was like tying a balloon around the muzzle of a wild hose. The anti-abortion bill is one of those pieces of legislation that seems to fix the problem, but it's not. It will just criminalize the victims and traumatize the child, likely. Have we learned nothing from the criminilization of marijuana?
     
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  2. bridgetmcb

    bridgetmcb Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2018
    Moral danger of abortion? Can you define what you mean by that?
     
  3. RazorbackPirate

    RazorbackPirate Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2018
    Alabama for a long time has determined that persons in-utero are due all of the same Rights and protections as persons ex-utero. Affording full protections means that in a case of vehicular manslaughter, where someone kills a pregnant woman and her baby in-utero, that person would face two charges of manslaughter, not just one. If someone were to beat or stab a woman such that the woman lives, but she loses her baby in-utero, the killer would be charged with murder of the baby and whatever else for the injured woman.

    Affording full protections also means that all of the Constitutional Rights afforded to any person ex-utero, are also afforded to those persons in-utero. That includes the 5th Amendment which states, "No person shall be ... deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law." Meaning, before the life of a person in-utero can be taken, there must be due process (a court proceeding) to find that person guilty of a capital crime that allows the State to inflict the death penalty. As such, it is impossible to find a person in-utero guilty of a capital offense deserving of death.

    So in essence, the Alabama law removes previous exceptions that allowed some people in-utero to be deprived of their Constitutional Rights, while other people in-utero were being afforded those Rights. Alabama has decided moving forward, all people, in-utero or ex-utero regardless of circumstance, cannot be deprived of their Constitutional Rights. No exceptions.

    No wiggle for anything under any circumstance. In other words, a person does not stop being a person or fail to become a person because of the circumstances surrounding their becoming a person. They had nothing to do with it, they should not lose their life because of it. Hence no exception for rape or incest. Both absolutely repugnant, but what did the baby do? Why should they pay for another's crime with their life?

    While I am sure some people are driven by a higher sense of morality, many non-religious people are in favor of this law because they support the moral absolutism of Alabama's definition of person hood.

    This is the type of moral absolutism that also prevents crimes against humanity. As we've seen too many times, mankind has a habit of arbitrarily deciding who is deserving of life and who is not. In Alabama, they've said all people, no matter what, are deserving of life and due process, if you plan to deprive them of their life. No exceptions. That should make a whole lot of people ex-utero, feel especially safe in Alabama. Ain't no one there gonna tell you, you can't be.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2019
  4. Emberguard

    Emberguard Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2018
    The only time I'd be ok with abortion if it's a absolute medical necessity. Not a "maybe needed" or a your child might have a disability but an absolute if it doesn't happen you're both dead. Once the child reaches the second trimester a c-section would save both mother and child in minutes in the case of a medical complication while an abortion could take upto a week. In a life threatening medical complication you'd have more like an hr to save them - abortions not an option for most life threatening medical complications. That's not even taking into account abortion puts the mothers life in danger anyway depending on how far along the pregnancy.

    I don't agree rape victims should be allowed to abort just because they were raped. There's no logical reason for a raped person to abort. Convenience isn't a valid reason. Everyone makes stupid decisions when they're hurting doesn't mean everyone around them has to go along with it. Aborting isn't going to help the mother cope or help them get over what happened. Aside from the trauma of losing a child, what gives anyone the right to continue the chain of victims just because they were hurt? It has to stop somewhere and it should stop at the first victim not the second.

    I get I can't force people to share my beliefs and that's ok. However I can't agree that outlawing it is worse then keeping it legal. If it's legal then it's an option. When somethings an option it's too easy to go to it during times when it's not needed or necessary


    Except abortion in itself is chopping off peoples heads. That's how abortions are done. They take the child apart piece by piece.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2019
  5. lukerduke the wise

    lukerduke the wise Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2019
    I really don't think the south is co-ruled by the church. I have been down to south Carolina, and nothing there is super extra religious extremism. There might be more Christians, I don't know, but these laws are made due to the beliefs of the people of those states, and many, if not most, aren't even Christians. This really is a belief that a baby, even before it is born, is a conscious being who has all the rights of a fully developed person
     
  6. lukerduke the wise

    lukerduke the wise Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2019
    I also agree that rape, while evil and cruel, does not justify abortion. You can still put your child up for adoption, or keep the baby even though it was produced in a horrible way. There are almost always ways other than abortion. By the way, they literally pull the baby into pieces, and many times the baby will even try to escape death while inside the womb
     
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  7. Alskah

    Alskah Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2019
    So a young girl raped by a family member becomes pregnant, the best solution is for her to carry the fetus to term and either give the baby up for adoption or raise the baby?
     
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  8. RazorbackPirate

    RazorbackPirate Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2018
    Unless you can find a reason to murder a person in-utero innocent of a crime, yes. The best solution for an innocent victim is to allow the innocent victim to live.

    Are you suggesting the best solution is to murder an innocent victim of a crime simply for being an innocent victim of a crime?

    The lack of exception also avoids false rape and incest allegations made up in order to abort.
     
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  9. Emberguard

    Emberguard Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2018
    Abortion isn't a solution though. It's using the excuse of inconvenience to self to justify absolving themselves of all responsibility of their own actions in regards to that childs wellbeing.

    The only way abortion is a solution is if the child is a problem. It's not. The mothers problem is they went through a traumatic event, they want to feel like they have some kind of control in their life and if the child remains in their custody they'll have another mouth to feed.

    Since when did feelings and inconvenience determine right and wrong?

    Funny thing about trauma. If you only take care of and focus on self you'll never heal properly. Granted things can remind us of traumatic events. But that'd happen with or without the child. If we only ever avoid the things that remind us of the trauma or focus on our own problems then we'll never heal. We actually cope better with trauma when we stop thinking of ourselves and start helping others. No one needs help more then a baby. It's difficult to raise a child of course it is, but it can also be a blessing and the very thing the rape victim needs.




    Oh yeah and as to OP talking about New York passing a ban. Doesn't matter. Federal law trumps state law. Even if New York makes it illegal it'll still be legal as long as federal law over rides state law. Rules within rules

    To summarise:
    upload_2019-5-18_20-50-18.png
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2019
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  10. Alskah

    Alskah Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2019
    I don't know why it surprises me that there are people who have these opinions... everyone, of course, is entitled to their own opinion. Murdering a child, a fetus that had been born to the world is one thing. Aborting an embryo is another... to make a woman or young girl be sentenced to a whole life of burden, which is what a baby is for a person or is mentally, financially, emotionally, unable to care for one. Some people may choose to not terminate a pregnancy in a unfavorable situation and go with other options. They still have the right, thanks to roe v wade, to make that decision for themselves.
     
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  11. HtebazilEAB

    HtebazilEAB Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2018

    I was an embryo at one point, and so were you. But what is the difference between an "embryo" and a live baby? When a doctor checks to see if someone is dead the first thing they do is check for a pulse. Why? Because a pulse is a sign of life. An embryo has a heartbeat at three weeks, often before the woman or girl even knows she is pregnant. And, oh yeah, that "embryo" also has pain receptors by the time they are aborted. So they can feel themselves being ripped apart. Think on that.

    FYI plenty of people are just waiting to adopt. Did you know that in some areas more people are on wait lists to adopt than there are babies aborted? I did not know that until I met a family who adopted four kids. Point being, just a girl who is tragically raped does not have to raise her baby if she does not want to be 'burdened' with it.

    Also, FYI, my birth mother was barely 16 years old, into drugs etc, tried to commit suicide while pregnant with me, considered aborting or selling me at one point (yep you read that right), and had no idea what name to even put for my father on my birth certificate. Are you saying that I should have been aborted?!
    As you can tell I was not, instead I was put up for adoption and got a loving mother who has never cared about the health problems I have due to what I went through before I was born.
     
  12. RazorbackPirate

    RazorbackPirate Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2018
    All those fancy euphemisms to trick your mind into thinking killing is something it's not. I'm also not surprised there's people who think killing in-utero is fine.

    People have sacrificed children to false gods since the beginning of human history. The first born was always the best. The only thing different now is the technology that allows us to sacrifice our children while still in the womb. Before modern 'medicine' folks had to wait until after a baby was born to sacrifice, and sacrifice they did. New York's new law just wants to give women the option to worship like they did 'back in the day.'

    Technology may have changed, but our fallen hearts have not. Nor have the false gods who still demand human sacrifice to serve them.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2019
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  13. Alskah

    Alskah Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2019
    Abortions have been taking place for hundreds/ thousands of years prior to modern methods. All the modern methods allow for is to allow for medical professionals to be at hand and perform a procedure that is more safe for the pregnant female... nothing to do with sacrifice.
     
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  14. lukerduke the wise

    lukerduke the wise Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2019
    The mother doesn't have to be burdened. They can put the child up for adoption. Plus, an embryo is still a human. Is it less human because it can't move or talk? In that case kill seniors with problems that disable their ability to live without outside help
     
  15. lukerduke the wise

    lukerduke the wise Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2019
    You seem to keep forgetting that adoption is a thing, and giving birth is even safer for the mother than an abortion, almost always.
    Also @RazorbackPirate is just saying that this is a problem, and it has to do with ourselves thinking we are in control of everything that ever happens in our life. Not that when you abort, you literally are sacrificing a child to an ancient Aztec god or something
     
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  16. Alskah

    Alskah Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2019
    And that's amazing that you were lucky enough to have that experience. There are plenty of situations that aren't like that and
    You are conveniently not acknowledging that I said a woman had the right to an abortion or other option (those options generally being to choose to raise a baby once it is born or put a baby up for adoption. ) abortion might not be the right or best option for every person in every situation. But it is still an option. That a woman has a right to. A personal decision that the individual gets to make for themselves.... this all comes across as hate and disregard for the mother, not a genuine love for an embryo. Which is truly cells, protoplasm, that have not yet developed to form a human being. And this is a debate that has divide people for so long, it's certainly not going to hatch its self out here on an FOE forum. For those reasons I'll choose to tap out at this point and go back to spectating.
     
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  17. RazorbackPirate

    RazorbackPirate Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2018
    While I can go with your interpretation, I am indeed saying that I believe abortion is child sacrifice to ancient pagan gods. I also believe there are those in the leadership of the pro-abortion movement who believe that as well. I believe that's why they push so hard to protect it and expand it with laws like the one recently passed in New York and attempted in Virginia. I believe we will continue to see a push for the right to 'abort' later and later after birth.

    I also believe their ultimate goal is to reintroduce the worship of Ba'al as the Canaanites worshiped Ba'al. We are already being programmed to accept it with 'fun' little shows like 'The Santa Clarita Diet' and 'wholesome' artists like Kesha who drinks 'blood' from a 'heart' onstage as part of her concert. Thousands of people watching, chanting, dancing, and signing along with her, as she worships the ancient gods.

    It's important to understand the etymology of words. Worshiping Ba'al in the style of the Canaanites = Canaan-Ba'al-ism = Cannibalism. The more you know.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2019
  18. Emberguard

    Emberguard Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2018
    Why? Does current location determine who or what we are? If I enter a cave am I no longer a human?
     
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  19. Stephen Longshanks

    Stephen Longshanks Forum Moderator

    Joined:
    May 8, 2015
    Legally speaking, yes. But only because of a misguided Supreme Court decision almost 50 years ago that had no real Constitutional basis. Not to mention the fact that legal does not always equal right or moral.
     
  20. bridgetmcb

    bridgetmcb Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2018
    Thank God for the death penalty and war! Otherwise what would we do with all these unwanted pregnancies. Who makes the most money off the poor?
     

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