Why not protect users?

[Pericles the Lion]

INNO has stated that they are not going to provide details of their investigations, or any actions taken subsequent to those investigations. It matters not whether it is an "invasion of privacy", it's their policy and they are well within their right to establish this policy. We all accepted the TOS when we began play.

 

[Kranyar the Mysterious]

Can you go up to a doctor and ask for the results of a patient? No? Why? Privacy laws. How about going up to a police officer and asking about their investigations? Same thing.

No, but you can ask the doctor how many people the drug he is trying to prescribe you have died from using it. Banned player lists that games put out don't name anyone directly, and they aren't put out to discourage wanton cheaters. They are put out to show the player community that serious action is being taken.

And it doesn't need to be a named list. With each update announcement there could simply be a line that says since the last update in our ongoing efforts to improve the player gameplay experience and reduce cheating, xxx players have received permanent bans and xxx players received temporary bans.

 

[Agent327]

Can you go up to a doctor and ask for the results of a patient? No? Why? Privacy laws. How about going up to a police officer and asking about their investigations? Same thing.

When you visit the doctor you do so under your own name. You even have to legitimate yourself. If Inno were to state that Agent327 has been banned for using bots, nobody would know who it is. Not even Inno, or do you really believe that people will be pointing at me on the streets and whispering, "that is the guy that got banned from FoE!"

Privacy is nothing more than an excuse.

 

[Sheriff Of Rottingham]

Sorry, not gonna happen. But I can tell you that it's been several accounts where we could confirm the infraction. I'd say countless.



I'm sorry, but we really cannot and will not give any details of our findings or investigations. It's one of our policies.

Why is that your policy? Because it comes across as 100% arbitrary and a cop-out to avoid being transparent. It isn't personal information. It's just data regarding POLICY ENFORCEMENT. If INNO provided real hard data on the number of bans, and the duration of the bans, they would end all of this. The honest players would be satisfied. The dishonest players would know there are consequences to their actions. INNOs policy on not providing this data undercuts your policy on cheating.

 

[LeCron]

(...)
With each update announcement there could simply be a line that says since the last update in our ongoing efforts to improve the player gameplay experience and reduce cheating, xxx players have received permanent bans and xxx players received temporary bans.

Now this is an interesting suggestion, and we'll definitely forward it to the relevant teams. Thank you.

About the rest of your on-going discussion about our policies, I'm sorry, but I won't bother to go deep into it. If I continue telling you the same things over and over, I'll sound like a broken record, and that's something I'm not willing to do.

A colleague reminded here a few posts ago: we have our policies, and like it or not, you've agreeded to the terms when you signed up to play the game. We'll be happy to review them if we find it necessary, but you can't expect that we'll discuss any aspects simply because you don't like or disagree with them partially or entirely.

Writting policies isnt something arbitrary. Several factors are included, legal too. And I'm afraid the Support Team isn't the best department to address such matter. It's not our role nor our competence. In case you want to go this way and address any concerns with our legal department, we'll be glad to address it with you via ticket. Not here.

Feedback is welcome, specially when it's constructive, and we'll be happy to bring them up to the relevant teams as well.

Have a nice day, guys.

 

[Agent327]

INNO has stated that they are not going to provide details of their investigations, or any actions taken subsequent to those investigations. It matters not whether it is an "invasion of privacy", it's their policy and they are well within their right to establish this policy. We all accepted the TOS when we began play.

Now that is really funny. It is also Inno's policy to make changes to the game without announcing them, based on the same TOS we all acepted, yet you refuse to accept that. Your indignation seems to be rather selective.

The TOS you mention is also very clear about the use of bots, but also about the use of software that allows data mining. Yet according to the developers of some of that software, they are developing it while discussing it with Inno. Strange wouldn't you say?

 

[iPenguinPat]

When the devs added the abort limit to counter bot users, they basically put up the white flag and said cheating is okay, as long as you limit how much you cheat. That's how i took it and many others have agreed with that sentiment. All it did was encourage cheaters to get additional accounts to do RQs instead of doing them all from the same account (since inno is very weak on enforcing alt/multiple account issues).

Putting an abort cap did nothing to STOP or discourage cheating.

This is a much easier issue to wrangle that inno makes it out to be.

Conditions in which people will cheat:
1) The rewards are considered more valuable than the risk
2) It is easy to do
3) Low risk of getting caught and penalized.
4) If caught, the penalty is minimal

If you move any of these levers, you will reduce cheating.
1) Setup conditions such that players exceeding what is possible get ID'd and banned. Force cheaters to slow down their scripts to be more humanlike, and the benefit is much lower.
2) ID the most low-hanging fruit scripts. If only complex scripts are able to be used without getting caught, many players will not put in the effort (or have the ability, depending)
3) Proactively seek to find cheaters. Make sure cheaters know other cheaters are being caught. This is where the abort limit is a huge fail. Since it doesn't ID cheaters, there is no reason for them to stop cheating.
4) Permabans are a must. it doesn't have to be on the first infraction unless it's super blatant. Obviously, some scripts are much worse than others. The most egregious should get less/no wiggle room.

Short-term bans don't work because players can't see that anything happened. if someone's activity flatlines for 24 hour or less, no one will take notice. If someone is banned for a week, it becomes more noticeable. If a known/suspected cheater is gone for a month or more, players that care about rule enforcement will take notice.

Last thing - the rules of fair play really need to be updated a bit. The last update was in 2015. Since then, the game has changed completely. GBG, GE, PVP Arena, and other activities make push accounts more effective; therefore, simple activity in those areas does not (should not) automatically mean that the account is not a push account.

When players donate literally 50k-100k FP above and beyond break even on other players' GBs (usually just 1 player) and yet do not level their own GBs, it's pretty obvious what's going on. These accounts often do some gbg and ge to help increase their FP production, and yet they are still neglecting their own city. The 2015 rules make this type of obvious pushing basically risk free. Cheaters get extra protection from getting banned/penelized by cheating more!

The flow of resources would be much better for ID'ing push accounts. (e.g. A massive flow of resources, usually FP or goods, going out from one player to another without reciprocation means either pushing or buying resources outside of the game which is also against the rules). The state of push accounts is so bad that players openly admit to using them in front of mods (in discord) because they know nothing will happen. (Don't believe me? send me a PM and I'll show you.)

 

[iPenguinPat]

The TOS you mention is also very clear about the use of bots, but also about the use of software that allows data mining. Yet according to the developers of some of that software, they are developing it while discussing it with Inno. Strange wouldn't you say?

The wording about data mining is pretty vague in the TOS.
"The use of software which allows data mining or that in any other way collects information associated with the Games is prohibited."

The definition of data mining is kind of important here. Especially in relation to video games, data mining is often used in terms of finding spoilers and looking for hidden info about the game.

In a sense, just by playing in your browser, you are breaking this rule as the browser is software, and it collects and displays the data innogames provides. I'm not a lawyer. It just seems like the language has a lot of wiggle room for both parties to argue.

Generally, data mining is dealing with large data sets - much larger than a player could collect with an extension. I suppose this wording is included to prevent things like large groups of players tracking drop rates of daily specials to validate that drop rates are consistent with the published values. Same for siege camps or TOR relics or whatever.

--
The wording another game uses for data mining is more clear:

1. Data Mining: Use any unauthorized process or software that intercepts, collects, reads, or “mines” information generated or stored by the Platform; provided, however, that ___________ may, at its sole and absolute discretion, allow the use of certain third-party user interfaces.

--
If developers have reached out to support and requested a review of their extension/software (and that was meant to enhance the game experience rather than provide a cheat or unfair advantage), it would make sense for inno to acknowledge and allow such software (or websites, in some cases) to exist and continue to function.

 

[Agent327]

The wording about data mining is pretty vague in the TOS.
"The use of software which allows data mining or that in any other way collects information associated with the Games is prohibited."

The definition of data mining is kind of important here. Especially in relation to video games, data mining is often used in terms of finding spoilers and looking for hidden info about the game.

In a sense, just by playing in your browser, you are breaking this rule as the browser is software, and it collects and displays the data innogames provides. I'm not a lawyer. It just seems like the language has a lot of wiggle room for both parties to argue.

Generally, data mining is dealing with large data sets - much larger than a player could collect with an extension. I suppose this wording is included to prevent things like large groups of players tracking drop rates of daily specials to validate that drop rates are consistent with the published values. Same for siege camps or TOR relics or whatever.

--
The wording another game uses for data mining is more clear:

1. Data Mining: Use any unauthorized process or software that intercepts, collects, reads, or “mines” information generated or stored by the Platform; provided, however, that ___________ may, at its sole and absolute discretion, allow the use of certain third-party user interfaces.

--
If developers have reached out to support and requested a review of their extension/software (and that was meant to enhance the game experience rather than provide a cheat or unfair advantage), it would make sense for inno to acknowledge and allow such software (or websites, in some cases) to exist and continue to function.

True. The browser does display the data Inno supplies, but not in plain sight. You need to know how to look for it and not many do. The software does display the info and in a direct way for you to profit from it. You can argue against what the extension does is data mining. What you can not argue against is the second part of that sentence you posted. Software that in any other way collects information associated with the Games, cause that is spot on. Besides that, there also are the game rules that tell you it is not allowed to use bots or scripts with this very relevant subline: " You may not use programs that mimic premium features or provide an unfair advantage.". It absolutely provides an unfair advantage to players using it and you know that as well as I do.

 

[Sheriff Of Rottingham]

Now this is an interesting suggestion, and we'll definitely forward it to the relevant teams. Thank you.

About the rest of your on-going discussion about our policies, I'm sorry, but I won't bother to go deep into it. If I continue telling you the same things over and over, I'll sound like a broken record, and that's something I'm not willing to do.

A colleague reminded here a few posts ago: we have our policies, and like it or not, you've agreeded to the terms when you signed up to play the game. We'll be happy to review them if we find it necessary, but you can't expect that we'll discuss any aspects simply because you don't like or disagree with them partially or entirely.

Writting policies isnt something arbitrary. Several factors are included, legal too. And I'm afraid the Support Team isn't the best department to address such matter. It's not our role nor our competence. In case you want to go this way and address any concerns with our legal department, we'll be glad to address it with you via ticket. Not here.

Feedback is welcome, specially when it's constructive, and we'll be happy to bring them up to the relevant teams as well.

Have a nice day, guys.

Respectfully, we aren't telling you to violate the policy. Nor are we saying the policy is arbitrary. What we are saying is:

• the two policies regarding cheating, and not sharing statistics on cheating mitigation are somewhat contradictory
• the policies, and the manner in which INNO enforces them appear arbitrary. Which you could easily solve by considering a policy change that increases transparency towards your customers. For goodness sake, these aren't the 10 commandments written in stone.
• There is a persistent perception amongst the player base that cheating is RAMPANT in this game. There are two truths INNO would do well to consider. The first being that perception is reality. Maybe there's a lot of cheating, maybe there isn't, but it doesn't matter which b/c the customers think there is. By refusing to be transparent on your actions to resolve the perceived problem, you literally make it worse. The second is cheating drives down customer satisfaction; and unsatisfied customers spend less money.

Again, no one is telling you to violate policy, nor are we saying we don't agree to follow the policy. Just tell us the truth about what you're doing. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills, why is this so controversial?

 

[Johnny B. Goode]

There is a persistent perception amongst the player base that cheating is RAMPANT in this game.

I find this interesting. In my 7 years in this game the only time I've seen anyone complain about cheating in the game is here in the Forum. And even then, it's only a minority of posters who seem find it a problem. I have never heard anyone in-game complain about other players cheating in the entire 7 years. And I've had cities on all worlds at one time or another and been in many guilds over those years. Lots of conversations and interactions and never a word about cheating. So maybe in your circle of players there might be such a perception, but it is a stretch to say that it is widespread in the entire player base. Or maybe I've somehow only run into contented or naive players in all that time. That doesn't seem likely, though.

 

[LeCron]

(...)
Again, no one is telling you to violate policy, nor are we saying we don't agree to follow the policy. Just tell us the truth about what you're doing. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills, why is this so controversial?

It's ok, I never felt disrespected. I hope I haven't been rude or something to any of you. It's never my intention.

But I've been telling you the truth about what we've been doing over and over in this very same thread - like the broken record I never wanted to become. :/

Here, here, here, here and here for example... and as I said, if and when something changes, we'll let you know.

 

[Ebeondi Asi]

I find this interesting. In my 7 years in this game the only time I've seen anyone** complain about cheating in the game is here in the Forum. And even then, it's only a minority of posters who seem find it a problem. I have never heard anyone in-game complain about other players cheating in the entire 7 years. And I've had cities on all worlds at one time or another and been in many guilds over those years. Lots of conversations and interactions and never a word about cheating. So maybe in your circle of players there might be such a perception, but it is a stretch to say that it is widespread in the entire player base. Or maybe I've somehow only run into contented or naive players in all that time. That doesn't seem likely, though.
[/QUOTE

**The percentage may be the same as the percentage of paranoid people in the general gamig population?

 

[Agent327]

I find this interesting. In my 7 years in this game the only time I've seen anyone complain about cheating in the game is here in the Forum.

Where exactly did you expect to see it? Never been on world chat?

And even then, it's only a minority of posters who seem find it a problem. I have never heard anyone in-game complain about other players cheating in the entire 7 years. And I've had cities on all worlds at one time or another and been in many guilds over those years. Lots of conversations and interactions and never a word about cheating. So maybe in your circle of players there might be such a perception, but it is a stretch to say that it is widespread in the entire player base. Or maybe I've somehow only run into contented or naive players in all that time. That doesn't seem likely, though.

I do not think it doesn't seem likely. Maybe you are in the wrong circle. Players that complain obviously have another playstyle than you. Besides that, is it even relevant how many complain? Every complaint is relevant. Even if in the entire game only one player on one world on one server cheats, something needs to be done about it.

 

[Kranyar the Mysterious]

I find this interesting. In my 7 years in this game the only time I've seen anyone complain about cheating in the game is here in the Forum. And even then, it's only a minority of posters who seem find it a problem. I have never heard anyone in-game complain about other players cheating in the entire 7 years. And I've had cities on all worlds at one time or another and been in many guilds over those years. Lots of conversations and interactions and never a word about cheating. So maybe in your circle of players there might be such a perception, but it is a stretch to say that it is widespread in the entire player base. Or maybe I've somehow only run into contented or naive players in all that time. That doesn't seem likely, though.

I've been in guilds where people "knew" the founder in the guild was cheating (more sectors taken in gbg in seconds than humanly possible) and complained quite a lot in the guild threads. It got so bad that the guild ended up dissolving over it. And like Agent said, general chat is often filled with it too. Forums to me are much more sedate regarding the subject than talk within the game, though I do doubt that this talk happens anywhere outside of higher ranked guilds. I generally don't worry about it one way or the other so long as I get a decent number of battles in during a season.

 

[Sharmon the Impaler]

Can you go up to a doctor and ask for the results of a patient? No? Why? Privacy laws. How about going up to a police officer and asking about their investigations? Same thing.

I work with protected and classified documents regularly at work and this is not true. Criminality disclosed or suspected would out the person's full name where they are not even found guilty or innocent yet or maybe they don't have enough evidence to lay charges even. Medical records ? Really , these are some of the most protected types of documents worldwide and you compare outing a game username with no real world consequences other than the game ban to medical records ?

 

[blunderpie]

Hi there,

We've been always working on improving our tools and methods against bots usage, and we thank you for your concerns. However, respectfully, claiming "Inno doesn't deal with bot users? Do they make more money by letting bot users proliferate in this game? Are they understaffed? Maybe they don't care at all?" is ignorance.

I'm really sorry if you feel frustrated about this matter, and I can assure you this topic isn't going unnoticed, and we have been dealing with ir through the proper channels: whenever you find a breach of rules, send us a ticket and we'll investigate and take action when we confirm the infraction.

Not noticing an action does not mean we haven't been acting.

I do appreciate you commenting on this issue. I understand that submitting a ticket is the proper channel. I have been in touch with multiple guilds in our world and in my estimate, more than a hundred tickets with overwhelming video evidence has accompanied the tickets. This has gone on for months and the same 3 players are involved - it's actually 2 players one of them controlling 2 accounts. Let me emphasize, nothing has been done - for months!

Interestingly, there was 1 player that was reported previously and his account no longer exists on the server. The action was prompt. Maybe his account was deleted. However, 3 other players that we can only suspect paid money to Inno in the past are allowed to continue to ruin the whole server.

Can you comment?
How many tickets with clear video evidence does it take for Inno to take action?
How many months does Inno need to take action?

Furthermore, several players that have submitted a ticket about bot users, have been contacted by the bot users shortly after submission and were ridiculed for telling on them. What does this say about corruption in your support staff?

 

[Johnny B. Goode]

Where exactly did you expect to see it? Never been on world chat?

Yep, I have many, many, many times. Lots of chatter. Lots of idiotic comments. Lots of complaints about many things, but not cheating.

Even if in the entire game only one player on one world on one server cheats, something needs to be done about it.

LOL. Yeah, I don't think so. What a ridiculous comment. Imagine a store that only had one person shoplift. They'd be thrilled. And it wouldn't be cost effective to spend much on security to prevent it.

 

[LeCron]

(...)
What does this say about corruption in your support staff?

It is a very serious accusation. Respectfully, do you have any evidence to present in a ticket so we can investigate? Or is it just an attempt to be disruptive?

About your other questions, please read my previous posts in this very same thread.

 

[blunderpie]

There is no attempt to be disruptive. Every single fact that I have mentioned on this forum is backed by evidence collected from personal experience and that of other users. When I have previously mentioned that the bot users have been detected to fight over 200 fights per minute, this isn't some dreamed up number. This was determined from careful video analysis.

I have read all your previous posts. Personally, I understand your policy on privacy and don't care for publicly revealing users or any action like that. I simply want bot users to be dealt with in a timely manner.

In all your posts you have not addressed my questions. If more than 100 of tickets and substantial number of videos don't do it, what does it take to have a bot user dealt with? If the bot users are not dealt with month after month after month, it's like doing nothing at all. What is Inno's expected response time?

You mentioned that in some instances Inno deals with a cheater and we don't even know about it. That is true, especially when that cheater continues to use automation software day after day, week after week, month after month and has not stopped.