Why not protect users?

[blunderpie]

This has been an interesting few days. Thanks to the admins here, we've had a thread to discuss bot usage and the associated issues. I've only seen a little bit of admin censorship in this thread. Those that are impacted care quite a bit. Those that are not, are telling everyone else not to care. What has come out of the discussion are the following:

1. If you suspect a player using bots, submit a ticket via the support channels. This is clear and we all agree on it.
2. Inno has no escalation protocol for notorious bot users that have been reported but continue to use bots. If Inno does not stop the alleged bot user, there is no recourse. Sure, you can keep submitting one ticket after another, but it's a waste of time. There are bot users that are given a license to bot and no amount of reporting is going to stop them.
3. Inno will not state what their approximate response time is to tickets in general. No, I am not talking about specific cases. Inno will not say, "it may take us up to a month or six months to investigate a ticket on a bot user". Hence, users have no idea if their tickets have been ignored when bot users are allowed to operate for months on end.
4. As is evident in these discussions, Inno representatives continue to avoid answering pointed questions even though the questions do not discuss specific cases and do not violate their policies.

Given the responses or lack thereof to many pointed questions here, my questions that started this thread are not that absurd. Perhaps, other measures are needed to open everyone's eyes.

 

[Flynn013]

The "average time" why average? why not the fastest time. I can click way faster. Am i supposed to wait because slow people take a lot longer?
Usually stuff to help slow, weak and poor players sucks. the game is about doing better. not doing average.

I see that saying average time wasn't correct. How about a contest to find the fastest clicker in the game, then use that to set a minimum time per fight. That would stop the bots from clicking faster than a real player. I know this does nothing to stop the bots from being used but it at least slows them down.

 

[Kranyar the Mysterious]

Not to get pedantic, but the limits on RQ's are on aborts, not actual quests done. The actual number of quests a player can do varies substantially based on a lot of factors, so is not a uniform limit across the board, but is almost always going to be more than 10x lower than the number of aborts. So regarding fights or negotiations the equivalent number would be 200 or less, not 2000.

 

[Emberguard]

How about a contest to find the fastest clicker in the game, then use that to set a minimum time per fight. That would stop the bots from clicking faster than a real player.

GvG and Guild BattleGrounds are already a contest on speed. The fact you want a speed contest to determine who the bots are indicates you're not confident in Inno's ability to identify bots now. Otherwise you wouldn't need the contest as you could just analyze the data already there. How would you set up this contest to ensure everyone involved is (a) not using bots (b) the fastest clickers around (c) there won't be anyone faster legit players that comes into the game in the future?

Do you intend for everyone to travel to Germany so they can do it in person? Should it be restricted to Inno Staff only to ensure the results are legit?

Then there's also the factor of what tools are to be used.

Not everyone uses a traditional mouse design. You have pens (drawing tablets), touch screens, ergonomic mice and gamer mice that all act as mice but change what speed you're able to achieve in a legitimate manner due to how you hold the device.

What about internet connection? Someone with nearly a GB upload/download speed is going to be far superior in speed to someone on 20mbs upload/download speed. Would we want the test to involve internet at all? Or test without a internet connection and base the speeds on offline tests?

What strength of the machine should we be testing click speed on? Are we testing in the game itself or in a much simpler program that's purely measuring clicks?

 

[Flynn013]

GvG and Guild BattleGrounds are already a contest on speed. The fact you want a speed contest to determine who the bots are indicates you're not confident in Inno's ability to identify bots now. Otherwise you wouldn't need the contest as you could just analyze the data already there. How would you set up this contest to ensure everyone involved is (a) not using bots (b) the fastest clickers around (c) there won't be anyone faster legit players that comes into the game in the future?

Do you intend for everyone to travel to Germany so they can do it in person? Should it be restricted to Inno Staff only to ensure the results are legit?

Then there's also the factor of what tools are to be used.

Not everyone uses a traditional mouse design. You have pens (drawing tablets), touch screens, ergonomic mice and gamer mice that all act as mice but change what speed you're able to achieve in a legitimate manner due to how you hold the device.

What about internet connection? Someone with nearly a GB upload/download speed is going to be far superior in speed to someone on 20mbs upload/download speed. Would we want the test to involve internet at all? Or test without a internet connection and base the speeds on offline tests?

What strength of the machine should we be testing click speed on? Are we testing in the game itself or in a much simpler program that's purely measuring clicks?

I don't want a contest, it was just a thought. I don't care about bot use, they have no effect on my game but some players seem to have a problem with their use.

 

[mellofax]

This has been an interesting few days. Thanks to the admins here, we've had a thread to discuss bot usage and the associated issues. I've only seen a little bit of admin censorship in this thread. Those that are impacted care quite a bit. Those that are not, are telling everyone else not to care. What has come out of the discussion are the following:

1. If you suspect a player using bots, submit a ticket via the support channels. This is clear and we all agree on it.
2. Inno has no escalation protocol for notorious bot users that have been reported but continue to use bots. If Inno does not stop the alleged bot user, there is no recourse. Sure, you can keep submitting one ticket after another, but it's a waste of time. There are bot users that are given a license to bot and no amount of reporting is going to stop them.
3. Inno will not state what their approximate response time is to tickets in general. No, I am not talking about specific cases. Inno will not say, "it may take us up to a month or six months to investigate a ticket on a bot user". Hence, users have no idea if their tickets have been ignored when bot users are allowed to operate for months on end.
4. As is evident in these discussions, Inno representatives continue to avoid answering pointed questions even though the questions do not discuss specific cases and do not violate their policies.

Given the responses or lack thereof to many pointed questions here, my questions that started this thread are not that absurd. Perhaps, other measures are needed to open everyone's eyes.

We have already explained as much as we can for the most part as you have noted, but please do appreciate we do understand your frustration - this is one of the reasons we allowed the chat here in the first place and have tried not to interfere with viewpoints (as long as they do not cross a line)

One thing I will add is that - even putting aside the policies we already mentioned - we would not want to share any part of our internal processes because we most definitely do not want to provide any potential bot user with an explanation on how we detect, check, process or otherwise investigate a report of a potential botter. In this case I hope people can understand less really is more. The only way to prevent information from being spread is to not discuss it in the first place.

Yes we do have internal policies we have to follow and we really will not go any further into our processes - but we also appreciate how sad it is that we cannot be transparent. We do however have to put the interest of the game, the company and the players first.

I appreciate this doesn't really help with frustration, but I hope it at least sheds some light that we do have a bigger picture to consider in what we do and say.

 

[blunderpie]

I can certainly appreciate that you don't want to reveal how you work. Unfortunately, this desire for secrecy is not allowing you to communicate useful information to the community and gives the appearance that you are not operating fairly.

An outside user can only judge the effectiveness of your processes and policies. It is obvious your processes and policies don't work. Bot users are laughing at you and bullying other players. They have taken over and ruined servers and you do nothing about it. All you do is hide behind your processes and allow these players to operate for months on end. You have failed to protect your users over and over and over again!

 

[Agent327]

One thing I will add is that - even putting aside the policies we already mentioned - we would not want to share any part of our internal processes because we most definitely do not want to provide any potential bot user with an explanation on how we detect, check, process or otherwise investigate a report of a potential botter. In this case I hope people can understand less really is more. The only way to prevent information from being spread is to not discuss it in the first place.

Nobody here is asking you to share how you do it. They are asking you to do it and maybe share the results of that.

 

[Ebeondi Asi]

I want Inno to keep it all secret. Then it can drive the already paranoid crazier LOL . No problem by me.
To my mind the 'fairness' whined about is similar to new players who get plundered.. Most get over it and realize it is part of the game. A few others are frantic and hate it. They feel violated. Same difference.
( do realize that Inno may desire bots to be eliminated. so there is differnce, the part I am mentioning is "player response". Where the way some people cannot get over some flaw.. It just drives them crazy.)
Still not my problem.

 

[Sharmon the Impaler]

There is one way to stop 85% of the cheating cold , remove the battle stats / player points.

 

[Emberguard]

Nobody here is asking you to share how you do it. They are asking you to do it and maybe share the results of that.

Players have often worked out the how on game mechanics purely from observing results

 

[The Lady Redneck]

Would I like INNO to stop the bots? Yes of course.

But does the fact that there are some saddos who are so pathetically poor at playing the game that they have to cheat to succeed drive me nuts? No.

Like every thing else whether it be Real Life or a game, there will always be the failures who are driven to cheat. They think it puts them on top and some will even brag to boost their own ego. Others sit nursing it like it is some amazing secret only they know about. WOW!! ain't they all so smart.

Am with those who choose to simply get on with enjoying my game. In all my years of playing. the botters have made no difference to it for me. So I am happy to let INNO have the problem of sorting them out. Got to say I am more than a little skeptical that they will put any more effort into finding a solution than they do about the hundreds of dead guilds that have been out there in every world for years. But that is very OT. So will say no more on that one.

 

[Johnny B. Goode]

gives the appearance that you are not operating fairly.

That depends on your viewpoint. To me, the current Community Management team here has provided so much more input to this conversation than at any time in the past. They have politely and firmly stated Inno's position and expressed that they understand the frustration. That is such a step forward, and yet players like you don't give an inch. You stamp your feet and demand that your alleged grievance be satisfied...and if it isn't, then it's a complete failure by Inno. I would bet that you have never been in any position of authority in any job you've had, because if you had, then you would understand that corporate policies and decisions are way above the pay grade of any of the support staff. The staff here has given you what answers they can. If you want more, you're going to have to contact InnoGames in Germany directly. But I'm also betting that you won't want to work that hard. You just want what you want and if you can't get it you'll throw a tantrum. Which is what your posts on this thread boil down to.

 

[marss]

well, the limit doesn't affect me since there's no way i could skip that many, and even if i hit limit i can just stop, there's no need to do any of the missions,
I've never known why people cheat, in a game like this where is the reward for that? cause if it's just bragging rights lmao the game is about patience, i mean we all know where finishing the game fast means, and you'll be bored after so what's the point on cheating to get there? people are funny

 

[TripleH]

well, the limit doesn't affect me since there's no way i could skip that many, and even if i hit limit i can just stop, there's no need to do any of the missions,
I've never known why people cheat, in a game like this where is the reward for that? cause if it's just bragging rights lmao the game is about patience, i mean we all know where finishing the game fast means, and you'll be bored after so what's the point on cheating to get there? people are funny

How can you get bored if a script is playing the game for you? Ever seen a script get bored?

 

[Snek]

I hope nobody here has....

 

[Johnny B. Goode]

How can you get bored if a script is playing the game for you? Ever seen a script get bored?

Where to start? Nobody said the script gets bored. There are two possibilities with your remark. Either you just misunderstood the post you're quoting (in which case let me help you out; it's the player that gets bored, not the script), or...well, frankly, I don't want to say what I think the other possibility is.

 

[hajiboy]

Bot usage does not affect someone's quantity of battles, mine included. But it certainly affects one's ability to compete for sectors. The bot users fight 20x faster than I do.

 

[Pericles the Lion]

Bot usage does not affect someone's quantity of battles, mine included. But it certainly affects one's ability to compete for sectors. The bot users fight 20x faster than I do.

Sorry but this makes no sense. If bot users can fight 20x faster, then they would most definitely negatively impact other players' number of battles. If they capture the sectors then you cannot battle in them. Since you get in about 12,500 battles each week bot use doesn't seem to be a problem for you (and it's not for me either). IMO, FOE bot use is more myth than fact and INNO responds appropriately considering the actual impact on other players.

 

[Snek]

If your attrition is at 100, you aren't going to be able to continue, bots or not.