Feedback for the Guild Battlegrounds Update 2023

[jaymoney23456]

Matchmaking is not an issue on the battlefield that @PJS299 displayed. He says that 4 of the 8 guilds are "Top 10" on his world. The issue is that 5 of the eight don't want to participate, two gave the open a half-hearted attempt at best and the remaining one rolled up map facing almost no resistance. If three "top 10" guilds don't want to give it their best effort how can INNO do a better job of matchmaking.

Matchmaking is an issue in general. Didn't specify that it was or wasn't specific issue for the post.

 

[PJS299]

@UBERhelp1

Matchmaking is not an issue on the battlefield that @PJS299 displayed. He says that 4 of the 8 guilds are "Top 10" on his world. The issue is that 5 of the eight don't want to participate, two gave the open a half-hearted attempt at best and the remaining one rolled up map facing almost no resistance. If three "top 10" guilds don't want to give it their best effort how can INNO do a better job of matchmaking.

See, that's where you're wrong. Both guilds were trying. On a map with top ten guilds that don't use bots, we can take most of the map in about 15 minutes. The problem was, green somehow ran across the map in 2 minutes and locked us down. Somehow, at the end of the day, they are still taking sectors in 10 seconds.

And how do you explain the lag? We're getting crazy lag, but they are still able to take a sector in seconds? After being on many, many maps with this guild (I'm the one who's actually playing in H, none of you have a main in H), things begin to look suspicious.

There's this great quote by Aldous Huxley, “Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.”

You can deny it, but it doesn't mean it's not true. They're using bots.

 

[jaymoney23456]

@UBERhelp1

See, that's where you're wrong. Both guilds were trying. On a map with top ten guilds that don't use bots, we can take most of the map in about 15 minutes. The problem was, green somehow ran across the map in 2 minutes and locked us down. Somehow, at the end of the day, they are still taking sectors in 10 seconds.

And how do you explain the lag? We're getting crazy lag, but they are still able to take a sector in seconds? After being on many, many maps with this guild (I'm the one who's actually playing in H, none of you have a main in H), things begin to look suspicious.

There's this great quote by Aldous Huxley, “Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.”

You can deny it, but it doesn't mean it's not true. They're using bots.

Our guild is the same way-we can go back and forth across the map all day but how does one compete with bots is the issue!

 

[Johnny B. Goode]

@Pericles the Lion @Sharmon the Impaler @Johnny B. Goode @Flynn013 @UBERhelp1 @NWWolverine @85gt @Sunslinger

If anybody is skeptical, please PM me. I have recordings of them taking multiple sectors at a time in seconds.

Spoiler: Some of the recordings

https://streamable.com/rbbzup https://streamable.com/3eogwg

Sorry for website, can't upload directly to forum.

I'm not skeptical, I'm apathetic. I don't know why you think I care about whether or not bots are used in GBG. I don't. I totally ignore GBG in all my cities. What goes on there has no bearing on my cities or my game playing. So leave me out of this retread of the bots drama.

 

[UBERhelp1]

@UBERhelp1

See, that's where you're wrong. Both guilds were trying. On a map with top ten guilds that don't use bots, we can take most of the map in about 15 minutes. The problem was, green somehow ran across the map in 2 minutes and locked us down. Somehow, at the end of the day, they are still taking sectors in 10 seconds.

And how do you explain the lag? We're getting crazy lag, but they are still able to take a sector in seconds? After being on many, many maps with this guild (I'm the one who's actually playing in H, none of you have a main in H), things begin to look suspicious.

There's this great quote by Aldous Huxley, “Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.”

You can deny it, but it doesn't mean it's not true. They're using bots.

I think you're missing what I'm saying. I do not deny the use of bots in FoE. I am simply explaining that what you have shown is not proof. If you provide evidence to support the fact that they are botting, then I will agree. But there is not evidence to suggest that based on what you shared with us.

As I said before, if you can isolate the taking of one of these provinces that quickly to one or two players, that is a likely sign of botting. But when you show a clip that appears to have been recorded at the start of GBG, where a 79 player guild is taking provinces at a reasonable speed if they have many members on, then that is not proof. I know guilds that have extremely strong GBG starts, managing to take provinces very quickly, and do not bot.

To restate: I am not denying that there is botting, but rather saying that the evidence you have provided is not sufficient to claim those players are.

[EDIT] - Another thing. The fact that they take so many provinces so quickly supports the hypothesis of there being many players on who are working together. If it was limited to a few players fighting quickly, their attrition would quickly reach their limits after not too many provinces. Again, not proof one way or another, but it does suggest that they are not botting.

 

[Emberguard]

And how do you explain the lag? We're getting crazy lag, but they are still able to take a sector in seconds?

Anytime you have a large amount of traffic you're naturally going to experience lag. Lag by itself doesn't prove or disprove anything without proper context. You could have very little traffic but still have a lousy ping. Even if everyone on the map has massive lag, if 80 players are all hitting the same sector that's only 2 - 3 fights required per player to capture a province at the start of season.

If you believe the lag is beyond what could naturally occur through legit play, please put in a ticket for a bot report and get it investigated. Arguing here isn't going to prove or disprove anything. It would need the logs to come to a proper conclusion

 

[Pericles the Lion]

[EDIT] - Another thing. The fact that they take so many provinces so quickly supports the hypothesis of there being many players on who are working together. If it was limited to a few players fighting quickly, their attrition would quickly reach their limits after not too many provinces. Again, not proof one way or another, but it does suggest that they are not botting.

Your edit goes to something that I have thought about. In 2016, Dr. David Grimes, a physicist from Oxford University, devised an equation to describe how long a conspiracy could survive before being revealed. A key variable in his equation is the number of participants in the conspiracy. He concluded that the greater the number of participants the shorter the amount of time before discovery. I mention this because GBG is 5 years old and, afaik, no player has come forth as a "whistleblower" with evidence of a botting conspiracy in a guild to which they are/were a member. If Dr. Grimes' theory is correct, this implies that, if botting is happening, it is at a low level involving few participants.

 

[Pericles the Lion]

And how do you explain the lag? We're getting crazy lag, but they are still able to take a sector in seconds? After being on many, many maps with this guild (I'm the one who's actually playing in H, none of you have a main in H), things begin to look suspicious.

I'm not a programmer so I can't begin to explain the lag. On the other hand, can you explain how the lag can affect you, and your guildmates, but not the alleged botters?

 

[Sharmon the Impaler]

I'm not a programmer so I can't begin to explain the lag. On the other hand, can you explain how the lag can affect you, and your guildmates, but not the alleged botters?

I have actually seen lag affect some guilds but not others on numerous occassions. Sometimes even 3-5 seconds between battle won and next battle. This is while I watch another guild blast accross the map like everything is fine.

 

[Pericles the Lion]

I have actually seen lag affect some guilds but not others on numerous occassions. Sometimes even 3-5 seconds between battle won and next battle. This is while I watch another guild blast accross the map like everything is fine.

I don't doubt what you have seen. I just don't understand how the server lag can affect some guilds but not others. I'm thinking about Occam's Razor. Perhaps these guilds have more players, stronger players, better connectivity?

 

[UBERhelp1]

I think you're missing what I'm saying. I do not deny the use of bots in FoE. I am simply explaining that what you have shown is not proof. If you provide evidence to support the fact that they are botting, then I will agree. But there is not evidence to suggest that based on what you shared with us.

As I said before, if you can isolate the taking of one of these provinces that quickly to one or two players, that is a likely sign of botting. But when you show a clip that appears to have been recorded at the start of GBG, where a 79 player guild is taking provinces at a reasonable speed if they have many members on, then that is not proof. I know guilds that have extremely strong GBG starts, managing to take provinces very quickly, and do not bot.

To restate: I am not denying that there is botting, but rather saying that the evidence you have provided is not sufficient to claim those players are.

[EDIT] - Another thing. The fact that they take so many provinces so quickly supports the hypothesis of there being many players on who are working together. If it was limited to a few players fighting quickly, their attrition would quickly reach their limits after not too many provinces. Again, not proof one way or another, but it does suggest that they are not botting.

I wrote this last night and was a little bit tired, and I realized I never mentioned what sufficient evidence could look like. Sorry!

If you want to actually find out for sure, you can get a trusted individual to join that guild and refresh the GBG member activity at the start of GBG (or another time a province is being taken quickly). That allows you to isolate who the fights are actually coming from, and you can see the relative speed at which those players are fighting. If it's just a few players fighting superhumanly quick, and the rest aren't doing anything, then you've got something that is starting to look like evidence.

 

[Pericles the Lion]

I wrote this last night and was a little bit tired, and I realized I never mentioned what sufficient evidence could look like. Sorry!

If you want to actually find out for sure, you can get a trusted individual to join that guild and refresh the GBG member activity at the start of GBG (or another time a province is being taken quickly). That allows you to isolate who the fights are actually coming from, and you can see the relative speed at which those players are fighting. If it's just a few players fighting superhumanly quick, and the rest aren't doing anything, then you've got something that is starting to look like evidence.

This is what I was alluding to in my post above. If botting was as pervasive as some players believe it is surprising that no "spy" has ever posted first-hand information about botting in a guild to which they belonged. There seems to be a lot of accusatory behavior but no one has bothered to embed themselves in a guild that they suspect of botting.

 

[Be Chuille]

I wrote this last night and was a little bit tired, and I realized I never mentioned what sufficient evidence could look like. Sorry!

If you want to actually find out for sure, you can get a trusted individual to join that guild and refresh the GBG member activity at the start of GBG (or another time a province is being taken quickly). That allows you to isolate who the fights are actually coming from, and you can see the relative speed at which those players are fighting. If it's just a few players fighting superhumanly quick, and the rest aren't doing anything, then you've got something that is starting to look like evidence.

There are members who have left guilds who verify that they use bots. They are not the only guild.

Have the deniers here ever looked at the bot that is being used? There are screen shots of the settings on the web site that sells the subscriptions.
Settings for GBG include:
Manual Mode: How many times = #
Auto mode: Till attacks = #
Negotiation: Till attacks = #
Attack Delay = #0 to 1500
Auto Units selection - on/off
Army preset: from the preset screen
Start / TURBO
Stop

Knowing how the bot is set up helps to understand what we are seeing when we see the bot is in action.
We have seen guilds take sector after sector in seconds and stop exactly a certain # below the max.

The sad thing is... Inno knows about this script too. They should be able to detect it.
The only thing we can assume is that they just don't care. As long as those using bots are spending money on the game, they don't care.

 

[Be Chuille]

Your edit goes to something that I have thought about. In 2016, Dr. David Grimes, a physicist from Oxford University, devised an equation to describe how long a conspiracy could survive before being revealed. A key variable in his equation is the number of participants in the conspiracy. He concluded that the greater the number of participants the shorter the amount of time before discovery. I mention this because GBG is 5 years old and, afaik, no player has come forth as a "whistleblower" with evidence of a botting conspiracy in a guild to which they are/were a member. If Dr. Grimes' theory is correct, this implies that, if botting is happening, it is at a low level involving few participants.

100% wrong.
Many players have left guilds that are known bot users, and have confirmed their use.
The bots are discussed in the guilds via Discord, including teaching others how to use it.

The subscription for the bot is readily available. It is not some unknown ghost/conspiracy thing.

Inno just does not care.

oh... btw. Others have tried to report these guilds by using screen shots from the Discord chats. Inno support refuses to use screen shots as evidence, because they can be doctored. They will only accept reported posts. oh and... we can not report posts from within guild chats either. So.... yeah.

 

[Emberguard]

we can not report posts from within guild chats either.

??? You can report Guild chats the same way you'd report anywhere else. In the message center click on the Avatar beside the post and then Report. For global chat dropdown click on the Username and then Report

 

[Be Chuille]

??? You can report Guild chats the same way you'd report anywhere else. In the message center click on the Avatar beside the post and then Report. For global chat dropdown click on the Username and then Report

hmm that must be new.

Still, most of the rule breaking discussion happens on Discord. Support will not take anything reported from Discord screen shots.

 

[Pericles the Lion]

100% wrong.
Many players have left guilds that are known bot users, and have confirmed their use.
The bots are discussed in the guilds via Discord, including teaching others how to use it.

Afaik, no player has posted on the Forum first-hand knowledge (with evidence) of botting.

If they discuss it on Discord there is a record of it that could be shared. Where's the beef?

The subscription for the bot is readily available. It is not some unknown ghost/conspiracy thing.

If you say so. Just because something is "available" doesn't mean that it is in use. Again, where's the proof?

Knowing how the bot is set up helps to understand what we are seeing when we see the bot is in action.
We have seen guilds take sector after sector in seconds and stop exactly a certain # below the max.

Guilds taking sectors in seconds does not prove botting.

oh... btw. Others have tried to report these guilds by using screen shots from the Discord chats. Inno support refuses to use screen shots as evidence, because they can be doctored. They will only accept reported posts. oh and... we can not report posts from within guild chats either. So.... yeah.

It's almost always "others" that report alleged botting. But, here we agree. Screenshots can be doctored and, yes, reposting posts could be a violation of the Forum ToC but the punishment is only a possible ban from the Forum. Seems a small price to pay for "doing the right thing".

Look. I've never said that there is no botting going. In fact, I've said that it would not surprise me simply because humans are, after all, human. Some will cheat on their spouses, their jobs, their taxes.....why not a silly online game? However, that said, there has been no real evidence presented that proves botting.

 

[Pericles the Lion]

hmm that must be new.

Still, most of the rule breaking discussion happens on Discord. Support will not take anything reported from Discord screen shots.

How do you know that rule breaking discussion happens on Discord? From first hand experience or gossip?

 

[Be Chuille]

How do you know that rule breaking discussion happens on Discord? From first hand experience or gossip?

From people I trust who have been in the guilds where this stuff happens.

 

[Emberguard]

Still, most of the rule breaking discussion happens on Discord. Support will not take anything reported from Discord screen shots.

There's also no objective way to identify a discord account to a game account. They're not linked in any verifiable manner.