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Forge Bowl Grand Prize Impossible to get with Out Diamonds.

xivarmy

Well-Known Member
spent diamonds and still did not get full building... Waited and spent over 12000 footballs the last day, all using the ultimate coach. only 9 levels of the building. and finished in Bronze league. Ended up buying the ultimate coach multiple times in other worlds and didn't get it either? spent nearly 6000 diamonds across 5 worlds and didn't get a single full building. all were short roughly 2K-4k footballs. This is the first event ever not getting the full building. Looks like the only way to play is with more and more diamonds that are getting more and more expensive. FOE inflation is way higher than even the real world. If its down to luck, Mine has run out. done buying diamonds since they don't seem to help with my "Luck". When the frustration out weighs the fun of gamming, time to look for something fun to play and cut my losses and frustration.
If you spent 12k footballs with the ultimate coach and *didn't* get it it's because you picked the wrong players. In general the lower cost players are better - especially with coach bonuses. And the "gold" = longest ones are catastrophically bad. (Silver players may not have been ideal (the cheapest ones, especially the one that costs 41 are the best buy) - but probably would've been good enough)
 
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Angry.Blanket

Well-Known Member
2 Cities, both used the ultimate coach, played the best cost per step in both. 1 made it one didn't and had to spend the 15.00 and ended up with 1 extra kit.
 

Pericles the Lion

Well-Known Member
An informal poll of our guild is 27 didn't get a full building out of the 56 that tried for it. Not very good luck or Inno is clawing the game back for some reason. Only working on events and doing nothing for the core game except to fix mistakes that an event or new "rule" introduces into the game is not game development , its called accounting. .
In addition to my main city where I used the Ultimate Coach, I have four GE diamond farm towns. In all of them I saved up my footballs and only used them when the Epic Kit was a DS. On those days I used the Specials Coach and always chose the lowest cost/yard player. I played each town daily collecting all incidents along the way and completed all of the quests. At the end of the event my total yardage in all four towns was between 970 and 990 and they ended up in the Amateur League. I did not get the complete event building but that was by choice - I was not surprised. I did, however, get over 22 DSs in every city. Had I chosen the Progress Coach, the extra yard per play would have been sufficient to get me to 1200 yards in all cities. I'll agree that this event had much less wiggle room than earlier events but getting the complete building, without spending diamonds, was not impossible provided players collected incidents daily and made good choices regarding coaches and players.
 

Cyrus the Adequate

Active Member
Thanks. It's a bit infuriating to see people who were lucky enough (and yes, it was luck) enough to get a complete building without diamonds saying "Well, I was able to do it so anyone can. You must have done something wrong."
4 out of 4 is statistically significant, and others here have had similar results.
 

Cyrus the Adequate

Active Member
An informal poll of our guild is 27 didn't get a full building out of the 56 that tried for it. Not very good luck or Inno is clawing the game back for some reason. Only working on events and doing nothing for the core game except to fix mistakes that an event or new "rule" introduces into the game is not game development , its called accounting. .
How many of these players were doing the math to select the best player each and every play? I find myself wondering if this may be the largest difference.

For example, the shortest distance was not always the best play for yardage. If a player was always picking the shortest play, they would be getting fewer steps than someone doing the math.
 

Xenosaur

Well-Known Member
How many of these players were doing the math to select the best player each and every play?

Well @Cyrus the Adequate , I did. Every play. Yeah, took between 1 and 2 hours.

When we said the math was tight, we meant it. When we said BE CAREFUL - it's human nature to succumb to event distractions, we meant it. When we explained that the design with LEAGUES meant that only 25% of the people playing would win an extra upgrade kit by staying in that band, we meant it.

In beta we seriously detailed all this, and in the live game, we brought over the same analysis we did in beta - to you all here for live. @xivarmy wrote up the exact recipe, and urged people to follow it for winning results. He actually broadened the core design so as to give a few options that would work. @Pericles the Lion added his considerable and accurate playing analysis from both beta AND Live to the same conclusions.

1) Some people balked @ spending diamonds for the Ultimate coach
2) Some people start off correctly, but got distracted by daily specials they wanted
3) Some people couldn't figure out the cadence and design of using the FREE progress coach a few times, or the FREE Leagues coach in conjunction with that - for a TOTALLY FREE WINNING SOLUTION.
4) Some people got distracted by not choosing the right runner, because they wanted the runner's prize
5) The last day diamond rush by OTHER PLAYERS is hard to model, but it's a lifeboat and Inno knows it. If others spend, and you don't - You can get caught on the wrong side of the fence - which many do.

So yes, there is a huge success variability in this type of event, and it DOES have distractions, on purpose. Inno's not here to create a playground. There here to extract money from you - it's a BUSINESS.

These multiple distractions, seemingly innocuous individually, allow very little collective slack. That's what we mean by razor sharp math - and it's GOING TO GET SHARPER this year, too.

In other words, small individual deviations from the FULL success path will increase the chance the mistakes sum to a FULL net failure to achieve your goal - and to recover you must spend money or diamonds, to reverse that outcome.

Inno banks on this happening. How do you think they do this? Aren't all their games FREE?

Update_Company_History_Visual_2020_English.jpg

It isn't because they chronically give stuff away...

The handwriting is on the wall. FoE Events are migrating at some rate (maybe fits and starts, fast then slow, maybe 2 steps forward, 1 back to let everyone rest from it...) to some expenditures (diamonds, cash or both..) from the player community. This historic posture that - if you work hard and play the event in earnest and in full, you'll get a complete building for free" is clearly being challenged quietly by game designs and actions, not words or ANY posted clarity that seems to resonate with the community as affirmation of the old policy..

It matters not what you think you're entitled to... there is a new dawn coming here to this cozy place that advertises "Play FoE for free".

What that classically means continues to shrink, and gets new scrutiny and maybe - a new definition. It's very dependent on individual opinions and the optics of the term: FREE.
 
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Johnny B. Goode

Well-Known Member
FoE Events are migrating at some rate (maybe fits and starts, fast then slow, maybe 2 steps forward, 1 back to let everyone rest from it...) to some expenditures (diamonds, cash or both..) from the player community.
You may not have noticed, but for most players it has already migrated there. I did all the quests. I collected all the Incidents. I used either the League or Progress coach each time I used Footballs. I did not choose players based on their prizes. I rarely chose the highest cost player. Did I read and follow the exact formula put forth by players from Beta? No. Nor should I have to. Diligently and intelligently working the event should be enough in a F2P game. Yet I fell short in 4 out of 5 cities. And two of them weren't even close. And I actually spent Diamonds in 3 of them. When actively and diligently working an event, I have never failed to get one fully upgraded main building in almost 8 years of playing. I can guarantee that I won't be spending money in the future with Inno taking this path. That chart you showed might just start taking a downward turn. It got that high from providing a great product, not from squeezing the players. I spent money when it was a great product. No more.
 

Cyrus the Adequate

Active Member
You may not have noticed, but for most players it has already migrated there. I did all the quests. I collected all the Incidents. I used either the League or Progress coach each time I used Footballs. I did not choose players based on their prizes. I rarely chose the highest cost player. Did I read and follow the exact formula put forth by players from Beta? No. Nor should I have to. Diligently and intelligently working the event should be enough in a F2P game. Yet I fell short in 4 out of 5 cities. And two of them weren't even close. And I actually spent Diamonds in 3 of them. When actively and diligently working an event, I have never failed to get one fully upgraded main building in almost 8 years of playing. I can guarantee that I won't be spending money in the future with Inno taking this path. That chart you showed might just start taking a downward turn. It got that high from providing a great product, not from squeezing the players. I spent money when it was a great product. No more.
The bolded is the issue. It's just like avoiding being sniped and all the other myriad little calculations that a player has to use to be successful in this game. If you don't choose the right player every single play, you are not going to maximize the progress towards your goal (whether that be daily prizes or the main event building).
 

Angry.Blanket

Well-Known Member
At some point we are going to have to define F2P, FOE is not 100% F2P. FOE can be F2P but with limited achievements.
 

Johnny B. Goode

Well-Known Member
The bolded is the issue. It's just like avoiding being sniped and all the other myriad little calculations that a player has to use to be successful in this game. If you don't choose the right player every single play, you are not going to maximize the progress towards your goal (whether that be daily prizes or the main event building).
Likewise, the bolded is the issue. You shouldn't need prior knowledge from Beta, and you shouldn't have absolutely no room for error. You apparently disagree. That's fine, you're entitled to your opinion. It's just not shared by the average player. In fact, it's not even shared by all the experienced players. Most of us believe that if you play the event intelligently and diligently and collect all the event currency you possibly can, there should be a little wiggle room. Now there isn't, and it's a shame that such a great game has sunk to this level. It is most certainly not a great game anymore. It's still a good game, but a merely good game isn't worth spending money on. That's my bottom line.

Incidentally, you can be successful in this game without worrying at all about being sniped. I have 5 active cities and 7 Diamond farms that fit my definition of successful and I never worry about sniping. Nor do I use "myriad little calculations". I use common sense. Once again, it's a case of you thinking of the "serious" player in your responses and not the average player.
 

xivarmy

Well-Known Member
How many of these players were doing the math to select the best player each and every play? I find myself wondering if this may be the largest difference.

For example, the shortest distance was not always the best play for yardage. If a player was always picking the shortest play, they would be getting fewer steps than someone doing the math.
With the +1 coach, the "cheapest is best" was accurate (there was one "individually more efficient" player that was a little more expensive ; but not enough so to be "worth it"). Without the +1 coach it's not always true (i.e. if you're using the league coach some of the time), but also not sufficient on its own to hit the 1040 yards without some luck.

The one individual exception when running the +1 coach was the 74/7 is less balls per yard than 64/6. But, the average should be 9.52 ; so you can also view it as paying 10 extra balls for only 1 extra yard which is worse than trying to save those 10 extra to get more chances at better plays than either of those two (with the exception possibly near the end where you might wind up with extra balls you can't spend and should pick based on what will likely leave you the least left over). Regardless, the difference between picking 64 or 74 is not going to be the reason to fail in general. The difference to the average of picking 74 over 64 is 9.53 instead of 9.52 - which isn't really going to change a thing - the situation doesn't arise that often and the difference in the choices is minor.

When not running a +1 coach the average should be 11.7 ; so anything 11 yards or less in the difference is worth going for the extra yard. Which puts the order at 41,48,60,49,62,74,64,(rest never picked). The difference if you stick with the "always shortest" is about 0.3 balls / yd worse. Which is not nothing. But also not an intolerable error for the hybrid progress/league approach which has some room for error past the 1040 mark it needs - even without any incident balls. And not using a +1 coach ever is probably insufficient (you'd have needed good luck on incidents just to make the 1040).

----

For those always picking shortest, and always using +1 yd, bad luck in incidents, or missing a few days connection are the most likely culprits to not hit the 1200. In many past events you often could get away with this (i.e. incident balls could be viewed as a "bonus"). You could not hit 1200 with free non-RNG balls alone in this one 10870 / 9.52 = ~1142 yards on average with the free guaranteed currency.

Which isn't to say you couldn't still get the building finished with bad luck - I had one that got maybe 100 balls from incidents starting at 109xx on the last day that did 720 yards with the progress, and the rest with the league to clinch bronze + 1040, and that strategy was enough to work in any world I've looked at comfortably. Though if enough people *had* done that strategy it might no longer have worked :p From a practical perspective though, I don't expect many to take that approach even next year (if next year's balancing is the same), so it should be an option for those who have bad luck and notice before it's too late that they won't hit 1200.

One other piece of luck was if you played the event on the first couple days and got your first touchdown before they balance tweaked, you got a bonus upgrade and didn't have to hit the 1200 *or* league. Lucky ducks ;) Me, I'm a chronic procrastinator who will do most of the event in the last 3 days usually :p

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That said just because it was mathematically fine with the right choices, doesn't mean the feedback on it being too hard is wrong! Events are for everyone - and not everyone has fun with doing math! While there's always been people who aren't perfectly active and make wrong choices and fail the event, typically there has been some cushion built in to tolerate some amount of wrong choices or missed opportunities - or some amount of greedy choices for the mathematically inclined! (i.e. i want to maximize specials *and* finish the grand prize).

It is clear that many people that have previously routinely passed the bar for "doing enough, with some thought to making the right choices" did not this time. And it's fair for them to be frustrated with that and express it. (Though declaring it impossible is a bit far)

The cushion was smaller - and it perhaps *was* for instance wrong that someone who spent the diamonds on the ultimate coach and then chose the *exact wrong players* (i.e. always longest) was not enough to finish it - in past years the ultimate coach would've covered that shortcoming. And especially at the new price for it, that seems pretty fair! (this year you would've needed over 13k footballs in total on top of the ultimate coach just to hit the 1040 yards for league bonus to be enough if you made that error in player selection - which is a *common* error to make as many by default will think "farthest is best, right?").
 

xivarmy

Well-Known Member
Not sure why but this event was easy enough, extra lvl1 plus 2 upgrades. The 4 yd players + +1 yd coach worked well for me. Better luck to u next time event pops up.
Most likely you had good luck on incidents, hitting 1200 yards, and making the league cutoff (which was usually also around 1200), and got the (unpredictable) bonus upgrade for playing early. (You needed 1 of the 3 between 1200 yards, bronze league, or lucky beneficiary of midevent balancing). Thing is that bad luck on incidents would've cost you two of them (not hitting 1200 would also have cost you the league unless you adapted strategy) - and not everyone rushes into spending their event currency the first day - especially when they don't know there's going to be an incentive to do so.

So while 2 extra might seem like a lot, it's really not that far away from not having finished it :)
 

Darkest.Knight

Well-Known Member
Football event is the same from yr to yr, most efficient players and +1 coach has always worked for me. My luck on incidents was pretty good, quit counting after 1000, collected maybe 1500.
 
Wow, the tone deafness. Some people need hearing aids it seems. It's like going to the cops after getting mugged only to have them tell you, "Well didn't you use pepper spray or a taser? Why didn't you stay in well-lit area? And isn't your fault for carrying cash on you? What were you doing out and about at midnight anyway?"
My luck on incidents was pretty good, quit counting after 1000, collected maybe 1500.

Football event is the same from yr to yr,
When you add 1 and 1 and come up with 3. Never in past events has anyone needed that much good luck with incidents to complete a building. So obviously this event ISN'T the same as previous events.
 

Pericles the Lion

Well-Known Member
When you add 1 and 1 and come up with 3. Never in past events has anyone needed that much good luck with incidents to complete a building. So obviously this event ISN'T the same as previous events.
I think that you had good luck in the past and credited it to either skill or INNO's generosity. This year you had bad luck or made poor choices and blame it on INNO. In my main city I used the Ultimate Coach and chose the most cost-effective players (same as the previous two years) and ended up with a complete building plus an extra level (same as the previous two years). In my diamond mines I used the Specials Coach and chose the most cost-effective players (same as the previous two years) and ended up short one level on the building in exchange for a LOT of daily specials (same as the previous two years). I don't see any difference in the mechanics between 2023 and 2022/2021. I'm not being "tone deaf", merely stating facts. Getting the complete building was near-certain thru following the previously mentioned strategy and collecting about 800 footballs from incidents. In each of my 5 cities I collected over 1000.
 

Johnny B. Goode

Well-Known Member
I think that you had good luck in the past and credited it to either skill or INNO's generosity. This year you had bad luck or made poor choices and blame it on INNO. In my main city I used the Ultimate Coach and chose the most cost-effective players (same as the previous two years) and ended up with a complete building plus an extra level (same as the previous two years). In my diamond mines I used the Specials Coach and chose the most cost-effective players (same as the previous two years) and ended up short one level on the building in exchange for a LOT of daily specials (same as the previous two years). I don't see any difference in the mechanics between 2023 and 2022/2021. I'm not being "tone deaf", merely stating facts. Getting the complete building was near-certain thru following the previously mentioned strategy and collecting about 800 footballs from incidents. In each of my 5 cities I collected over 1000.
The trouble with you trying to say it's the same as previous years is in the sentence I bolded. And the reason it's not the same as previous years is that they more than tripled the price of the Ultimate Coach. I notice that of the three parts of that sentence, even you couldn't honestly say that using the Ultimate Coach is "same as the previous two years." So no, the difference between the past events and this one is not "bad luck or poor choices", it's that getting the main event building fully upgraded has been made harder and more expensive. And all of you apologists denying it won't change that fact.
 

Cyrus the Adequate

Active Member
The trouble with you trying to say it's the same as previous years is in the sentence I bolded. And the reason it's not the same as previous years is that they more than tripled the price of the Ultimate Coach. I notice that of the three parts of that sentence, even you couldn't honestly say that using the Ultimate Coach is "same as the previous two years." So no, the difference between the past events and this one is not "bad luck or poor choices", it's that getting the main event building fully upgraded has been made harder and more expensive. And all of you apologists denying it won't change that fact.
I'm not denying it. I am stating unequivocally that I got the full building in each of my four cities without spending a single diamond, nor a single penny. Does it require some thought and planning? Yes. Is it impossible to do without diamonds? Absolutely not,.
 
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