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Did the Arc Improve the Game?

Salsuero

Well-Known Member
Not trying to be #1, I run a 78 person, top 7 Guild. Trying to make sure everyone in the guild can compete.

Fair enough. I can respect that. But I don't see how they cannot. The Arc is available to everyone. Also, making Arc friends helps you excel at certain things faster. No trying to argue your particular situation, but I don't think it is one that applies to everyone equally, so that's why I was seeking clarification.
 

DeletedUser25795

i won't get this attack bonus w/o the Arc https://prnt.sc/h5xr54

Thank goodness I am not in your hood :) Even top players on our world do not have half that much.

High level Attack GB's are 245% a few attack barracks at say 8% each maybe 10 of those in your city. A tavern boost of 30%, a few elephant sets say 6 of those so another 48%. Lets guess at 4 Sakura Rocks at 5% each and a Checkmate square at 9%.( Total 432 attack). I cant work out how anyone can have that much attack what am I missing? Is your city just attack barracks and nothing else?
 
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*Arturis*

Well-Known Member
Thank goodness I am not in your hood :) Even top players on our world do not have half that much.

High level Attack GB's are 245% a few attack barracks at say 8% each maybe 10 of those in your city. A tavern boost of 30%, a few elephant sets say 6 of those so another 48%. Lets guess at 4 Sakura Rocks at 5% each and a Checkmate square at 9%.( Total 432 attack). I cant work out how anyone can have that much attack what am I missing? Is your city just attack barracks and nothing else?
90 stc:)
 

lemur

Well-Known Member
Yes, the Arc did improve the game... That much power can have negative effects as well but be you farmer or fighter, rich or free player, if you build it, it shaves TIME off your gaming experience reaching high levels of this game. What's more important than your time...?

Your comments (here and elsewhere) fail to address the key problem — as I clearly stated in the very first sentence of my original post:

It seems rather clear that the Arc has been a tool to increase the disparity of wealth in the game.​

Perhaps you think that an increased disparity of wealth is of such little importance that it merits no consideration. I would strongly disagree. Nobody is disputing that the Arc makes Forge Point acquisition take less time. The issue is that the fundamental mechanism of the Arc allows some players to save much more time than others.

It's an exponential power GB.

Yes, and the exponential function is one where the rate of increase is directly proportional to the existing quantity. In other words, the greater your wealth already is, the faster it will rise.

for players using the Arc as a focal point of their game versus those that don't...the opportunity is there for all if they but choose it.

The opportunity is not the same for all. The greater the existing wealth, the easier it is to acquire that 90 percent contribution boost. For poor players (those with few FP resources), the only way to reach those heights is to buy diamonds ...
I can't speak to other factors but I can say introducing Arc has definitely directly increased diamond sales - as I've seen numerous people pay the nearly $160 worth of diamonds to buy the goods for it and build it.

... or to rely on the FoE equivalent of noblesse oblige:
If I am leveling my own GB I can ask an ARC player to help me level my GB.

While that strategy may seem fine for a while, it is ultimately unreliable for obvious reasons. It is human nature for any social group with power to be interested in maintaining their position of power — especially when the reward for being competitive is greater than it is for being cooperative. Such is the case with Forge of Empires. Very few players are interested in helping an opposing player to acquire the tools (such as a high contribution boost) to compete with them. What may seem like generosity is actually disguised self-interest — especially when the Arc allows a supposed philanthropist to benefit so handsomely. Once the threat of competition (from the unfortunate FP beggar) outweighs the capital gains, then the contributions quickly evaporate. I have seen this scenario many times.
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Freshmeboy

Well-Known Member
Did you also notice the part where the Arc is located in Future Era and not at the beginning of the game...That the disparity's imbalance lies there as many players never reach that age...? If the Arc was in the Bronze age do you think that disparity would have grown as large as it has now...? If it takes a couple years to reach Future stopping in each era a few months, wouldn't players already there gain a greater edge...? There is an attrition rate among new players that is much higher than older players but attrition in all MMO's occurs over the years..Again, 4 years from now the big fish will have left and the noobs of today will be the world ranking leaders...Believe it for that is the nature of ALL games....
 

lemur

Well-Known Member
Did you also notice the part where the Arc is located in Future Era and not at the beginning of the game?

The rules allow a player to own a building of any age, regardless of what age their Town Hall is. So the particular age of the Arc has little relevance (if any) to its impact on wealth disparity. Players of all ages have the Arc. For players at lower ages, acquiring the Future Era goods is an extra hurdle. But it is common to exchange Forge Points for goods, and the FP cost of those goods turns out to be a small fraction of the cost to advance the Arc to a high level. Furthermore, players who race through the Tech Tree tend to be poor in FP resources, unless they purchase diamonds. So having reached a higher age does not necessarily give a player an advantage in acquiring an Arc.

I have an Arc at Level 56 even though I am in the Late Middle Ages. I was already a relatively wealthy player (with an inventory of more than 2,000 FP) when I built it and began to advance it.
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DeletedUser29055

The opportunity is not the same for all. The greater the existing wealth, the easier it is to acquire that 90 percent contribution boost. For poor players (those with few FP resources), the only way to reach those heights is to buy diamonds ...

It may take a few months less, but what are a few months in FoE terms?

I still think the Arc has changed dynamics and made the game not worse, but, for me more interesting and better. But oh well, I don't have my level 80 Arc yet, so after a few months playing with an level 80 Arc I may change my mind ... who knows.

Same emotional debate like plundering. Some like, some not. Some agree that it kills the game (players leaving), some not.
 

lemur

Well-Known Member
Boo Flippin hoo.....the Arc is this games version of the same philanthropic or/and neo investment windows provided by real life economics in everyday life.

Your argument seems to be that the existence of a massive disparity of wealth in the real world of cutthroat capitalism makes it fine for Forge of Empires to emulate the same. I think your premise — that inequity is acceptable — is quite false.

Its an EMPIRE building game. And survival of the fittest is the result.

And that's a good thing? Sharks eat minnows, the strong crush the weak, and may the Devil take the hindmost?

The title of this thread asks whether the Arc improved the game. Your replies seem to argue that introducing the capitalist investment model has improved the game — because capitalism rules the real world. This might be called the "That's the Way It Is" fallacy. And I would also point out that might does not make right.

We all start this game with the same opportunities.

Except that some had a head start of years on others.

I am reminded of the famous quote by Jim Hightower back in the 80s, when he was the Texas Agricultural Commissioner. Speaking about George Bush (the First) he said, "He was born on third base and thought he hit a triple." . :D
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lemur

Well-Known Member
It may take a few months less, but what are a few months in FoE terms?

A few months? Or a few years?

Let's consider a player who has (1) few resources for generating Forge Points, (2) no significant ability to acquire diamonds (other than the occasional windfall from the Guild Expedition or infrequent quest rewards), and (3) no "sugar daddy" with noblesse oblige.

How could that player ever acquire a Level 80 Arc?
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lemur

Well-Known Member
I always hear a lot of talk about the arc being bad but see no examples of it that make any sense to me.

Person is leveling their GBs on their own or via swaps, big arc comes in snipes first and donates many more than they could other wise. Owner gets free FP, contributors pay less for their spots, arc profits some. What's the issue for anyone?

What about the player who was sniped in your scenario? What about the poor player who had contributed 80 FP for a 75 FP reward but instead had to settle for 30 FP — and a 50 FP loss?

Sniping existed before the Arc, but the Arc has made it much more common and severe. This "enhanced" sniping has caused a massive transfer of wealth — thousands of Forge Points — generally from the poor to those already rich.
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lemur

Well-Known Member
I also wish I could inject some sense into those who whine about the boogey-man of inequality, whether it be in real life or in FOE.

A concern for equity is not to "whine" or to be irrational. Equity is actually one of the highest virtues of modern civilization. Capitalism tramples on that virtue every day, but the power of an idea is still greater than the power of money. Love surpasses greed.
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Salsuero

Well-Known Member
Let's consider a player who has (1) few resources for generating Forge Points, (2) no significant ability to acquire diamonds (other than the occasional windfall from the Guild Expedition or infrequent quest rewards), and (3) no "sugar daddy" with noblesse oblige.

How could that player ever acquire a Level 80 Arc?
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The same way I will. I'm more than halfway there already and I've been playing a little over 400 days. The resources for generating forge points were not "given" to me. But I have them nonetheless. No diamonds involved other than the ones I earned in-game. No sugar daddy/momma either. Doesn't matter to me if I'm moving fast or slow. I'm moving at a pace I'm comfortable with. And I don't worry too much about other people's Arcs or other GB levels... what they have is theirs. (Unless they are cheating... i.e. breaking the rules.) It doesn't change how I play. In fact, I had my Arc well before you did, and yet yours is almost 10 levels higher than mine now. I'm not complaining about that one bit!

Is that a fair response?

What about the player who was sniped in your scenario? What about the poor player who had contributed 80 FP for a 75 FP reward but instead had to settle for 30 FP — and a 50 FP loss?

He should have contributed more? Rewards aren't a guarantee... Arc or no Arc. Simple.

This "enhanced" sniping has caused a massive transfer of wealth

Everyone is capable of earning forge points. Just because someone can earn more does not make it a transfer of wealth. You imply a limitation where none exists. There are "virtually" unlimited forge points to be had in this game. "Go get them" is the only suggestion I have to offer. I had no problem acquiring forge points early in the game and subsequently thereafter. Why didn't I have an issue, but somehow other people are poor because they do?

Capitalism tramples on that virtue every day, but the power of an idea is still greater than the power of money. Love surpasses greed.

Brother, I know you are anti-capitalism... I've heard you comment in a similar vein before... and while I do share some of your real-world ideas (and not all) about capitalism and wealth inequality... for goodness sakes, man... this is just a game, not an experiment in political and/or socioeconomic justice. And it doesn't have to mirror the real world, even if it does in many ways, to be effective as such.
 
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Freshmeboy

Well-Known Member
I'm sorry Lemur but my point about the age of the Arc is not only relevant it's the most relevant point in this whole discussion...right now arcs are being built in all ages. They were few and far between when the Arc was rolled out and took time to trickle down to the masses..I learned early on that the Arc would be a powerful tool in my empire growth and that fp producing buildings were key in its utilization....so I constructed my city in that fashion. Has there ever been a period of time in FOE that every event building was popping fps like candy...? Think that was a goof...? Or that the buildings favored low age players...? Again, a fluke...? No, it was by design to allow the little fish to get a huge boost-if you knew what to do. I'm one of those fish....using the Arc and its exponential power to help my guild grow and level GBs to the moon so we can be competitive...Yeah, that's good for the game...
 

DeletedUser29933

I guess I can be glad I found decent mentorship early. I never understood all the arc hating and crying over being sniped. "use swaps, a point spent is a point returned", "if it's not locked it's not yours", "big returns take big investment" and "if you can't lose it don't risk it" was some very basic guidance that was given me and has served me well. every time i was sniped i became more careful. When i see the big dogs going crazy i keep my pup butt on the porch and watch for scraps. I save my points from small rewards and keep my eyes peeled for big payout i can lock. I'm no mathmatician, i have to grab a calculator before i grab the mouse and if i can carve out my little piece of this game and grow in it i'm pretty sure most others can too.
Arc? I don't see how its any better or worse than pulling out the wallet for a field of cherry garden or palace sets. I'm just glad the days of point based hoods are behind us and I don't have to worry about being rolled daily by troops 3 ages ahead of me. One is bad enough. Even then i accepted it as part of the game and adjusted best i could. In other words I learned, some from experienced players, some from school of hard knocks, and adapted how I play the game instead getting mad the game is the way it is. Those power players didn't get there over night and I don't expect i'll be competing with them any time soon either.
 

DeletedUser29933

Besides. if small fish big pond syndrome is the issue...didn't Y and Z just open in recent weeks?
 
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