"Sniping" GB's, No, It's Not Bad

[DeletedUser26965]

Meanwhile on topic: SJS asked a great question that I could not answer, event though I've booted Guilfies for repeatedly
sniping other Guildies:



As i said, great question, and I can't even come close to answering it. Don;t get me wrong, I stand by my feeling that sniping a Guildie is wrong, but I can't even come close to answering it.

My subjective thoughts meet a reasonable objective question. Results, complete trainwreck for me to sort out.

Well done SJS.

Thank you for your forthrightness, and I'm glad you said "...I stand by my feeling..." which seems to go right to the heart of the matter. It seems wrong, feels wrong, I know but at the same time it's difficult to say with precision just how so. A good conversation and argument if you ask me, as long as people can keep their cool and focus on the issue at hand.

 

[DeletedUser]

I do tend to get derailed when people attack my posting style rather than my posting substance, or when people try to put words in my mouth, or people try to claim they didn't say something that they did, or vice versa.

Anyway, to the topic at hand, there are many things in life that you can't put a number or description on. Whether it comes to friendship, family, romantic relationships, work relationships and so on, you can't always say in advance, "If you do this, it's a problem." Most of the time, you can't really say where that line is, but when it is crossed you know it has happened. Part of being a good guild leader is having that discernment to know when a guild member has crossed the line into being a liability rather than an asset. Whether it's sniping guild GBs, not motivating/polishing, not supporting/participating in GE or GvG, posting multiple unbalanced trades, or something else, a good guild leader knows when it's time to act for the good of the guild as a whole. That's why I answer requests for a hard number on this topic by saying that it's a case by case basis. When you feel, as a guild leader, that a member has crossed one or more of the "lines", you message them with your concerns in as non-confrontational method as you can, and see how they react. Almost every time, that reaction will answer any questions about that player's viability as a good guildmate. And then you act accordingly.

 

[DeletedUser26965]

I do tend to get derailed when people attack my posting style rather than my posting substance, or when people try to put words in my mouth, or people try to claim they didn't say something that they did, or vice versa.

Anyway, to the topic at hand, there are many things in life that you can't put a number or description on. Whether it comes to friendship, family, romantic relationships, work relationships and so on, you can't always say in advance, "If you do this, it's a problem." Most of the time, you can't really say where that line is, but when it is crossed you know it has happened. Part of being a good guild leader is having that discernment to know when a guild member has crossed the line into being a liability rather than an asset. Whether it's sniping guild GBs, not motivating/polishing, not supporting/participating in GE or GvG, posting multiple unbalanced trades, or something else, a good guild leader knows when it's time to act for the good of the guild as a whole. That's why I answer requests for a hard number on this topic by saying that it's a case by case basis. When you feel, as a guild leader, that a member has crossed one or more of the "lines", you message them with your concerns in as non-confrontational method as you can, and see how they react. Almost every time, that reaction will answer any questions about that player's viability as a good guildmate. And then you act accordingly.

Which all seems very subjective and vague as it pertains to the concept of sniping, which if one can't express in detail how it works to be a wrong thing then ought to be abandoned as a concept altogether.

So I'll ask one last time, what percentage of fp's does it take for a guildmate to earn the right for a spot above all other guildmates?

 

[DeletedUser]

Which all seems very subjective and vague as it pertains to the concept of sniping, which if one can't express in detail how it works to be a wrong thing then ought to be abandoned as a concept altogether.

So I'll ask one last time, what percentage of fp's does it take for a guildmate to earn the right for a spot above all other guildmates?

I'm not trying to force the concept on you, and by the same token I don't think you should call on me to abandon it. I am not saying you should have this concept enforced in your guild(s). I'm simply trying to articulate, to the best of my ability, why I would enforce the concept in my guild(s), if it came up. As I've previously stated, the reason I do this is so that observers of the conversation will have both perspectives to make their own decisions.

I acknowledge and respect the fact that different guilds have different rules of behavior. I don't expect a player with your perspective to embrace my guild philosophy. I think every player should find a guild that has a philosophy that matches theirs or, if they can't, start their own guild.

The worst kind of guild member, in my mind, is one that wants to stay in a guild, but operate by their own set of rules rather than the guild's. I think you could agree with that, at least.

 

[DeletedUser26965]

I'm not trying to force the concept on you, and by the same token I don't think you should call on me to abandon it. I am not saying you should have this concept enforced in your guild(s). I'm simply trying to articulate, to the best of my ability, why I would enforce the concept in my guild(s), if it came up. As I've previously stated, the reason I do this is so that observers of the conversation will have both perspectives to make their own decisions.

I acknowledge and respect the fact that different guilds have different rules of behavior. I don't expect a player with your perspective to embrace my guild philosophy. I think every player should find a guild that has a philosophy that matches theirs or, if they can't, start their own guild.

The worst kind of guild member, in my mind, is one that wants to stay in a guild, but operate by their own set of rules rather than the guild's. I think you could agree with that, at least.

Sure I agree but this only in part related to the topic. I don't expect we will find an answer but when some say "this is wrong/bad", to anything in game or in life, I press for reasoning and detail, if that can't be provided and supported then I find no validity in it other than personal preference, like vanilla Ice Cream is better than Chocolate, in the end a purely subjective concept.

 

[DeletedUser]

Sure I agree but this only in part related to the topic. I don't expect we will find an answer but when some say "this is wrong/bad", to anything in game or in life, I press for reasoning and detail, if that can't be provided and supported then I find no validity in it other than personal preference, like vanilla Ice Cream is better than Chocolate, in the end a purely subjective concept.

Technically, liking Vanilla better than Chocolate, or vice versa, is due to how those flavors interact with your taste buds. You or I would not be able to articulate how this interaction works, or put any hard numbers or descriptions to it, but it would nevertheless be valid. The same principle would apply here. Besides that, I have provided detailed reasoning behind my thinking on this, in multiple posts. My reasoning doesn't become invalid just because you don't accept it.

Edited to add: I certainly would not even want you to have this concept in your guild, because you don't believe in it. I believe in it, and the reasoning behind it, which makes it viable in my guilds. And the times I've enforced this concept (although not on the specific subject of GB sniping), it has led to a tighter, more cohesive guild. The players that embrace this concept appreciate and trust a leader who looks out for their well being, especially when it comes to guild members that put themselves above the guild.

 

[DeletedUser26965]

Technically, liking Vanilla better than Chocolate, or vice versa, is due to how those flavors interact with your taste buds. You or I would not be able to articulate how this interaction works, or put any hard numbers or descriptions to it, but it would nevertheless be valid. The same principle would apply here. Besides that, I have provided detailed reasoning behind my thinking on this, in multiple posts. My reasoning doesn't become invalid just because you don't accept it.

As subjectivism goes you are entirely correct in your moral position on sniping, I'll grant you that much.

 

[DeletedUser15539]

Which all seems very subjective and vague as it pertains to the concept of sniping, which if one can't express in detail how it works to be a wrong thing then ought to be abandoned as a concept altogether.

So I'll ask one last time, what percentage of fp's does it take for a guildmate to earn the right for a spot above all other guildmates?

I would love to know the answer to that question.
If a guild member has put down 1 FP, and stands to make 100 FP back, am I an evil sniper if I put down 51 and get locked in?
What if a guild member has put down 10 FP and stands to make 100 back? Can I put 51 down on that?
Come on now, tell me what the rules are.

 

[DeletedUser]

I would love to know the answer to that question.
If a guild member has put down 1 FP, and stands to make 100 FP back, am I an evil sniper if I put down 51 and get locked in?
What if a guild member has put down 10 FP and stands to make 100 back? Can I put 51 down on that?
Come on now, tell me what the rules are.

The answers to your specific questions and hypothetical examples are: No, you are not an evil sniper in this case. And. Yes, you can put 51 down on that. Since you're not in one of my guilds, you don't have to worry about my rules. If you don't like my philosophy, find a guild with a philosophy you like.

It's kind of like guilds with specific rules requiring Treasury donations and/or defense armies and/or battle participation for GvG. I don't agree with that philosophy, so I don't join/lead a guild with that philosophy. And they may come up with specific numbers for their demands, but those numbers would be even more subjective than my lack of numbers and the numbers would vary wildly from guild to guild, and it wouldn't make their philosophy any more or less valid than mine.

I have been in a guild where leadership tried and struggled to put numbers to about every aspect of guild life. It was a nightmare, and didn't end up being doable. They did end up assigning numbers to some aspects, but they were entirely arbitrary. And the trouble with assigning numbers is that they're irrelevant to the good guild members, because they're going to go beyond them anyway, and they end up enabling the bad guild members because they'll hide behind those numbers, generally doing the exact minimum to comply and never any more.

 

[Algona]

If a guild member has put down 1 FP, and stands to make 100 FP back, am I an evil sniper if I put down 51 and get locked in?
What if a guild member has put down 10 FP and stands to make 100 back? Can I put 51 down on that?
Come on now, tell me what the rules are.

Algona's Answers: No and no. Neither the GB owner nor the guildie donor can reasonably expect either position to hold.

Whereas if the guildie donor had 40 FP (NOTE WELL! The donor has made a mistake here and I will make sure they understand why it's a mistake) on the GB, you have two choices. Donate 51 or donate 31. That's the key, a choice where the only significant difference is the Reward you get. The former has the appearance of greed. I'd expect any member of my Guild to do the latter and I would also expect them to tell the first donor they were (almost said sloppy, but due to my regard to that esteemed thought provoler will not do so) making a bad mistake.

If the first donor made that mistake a second time after being warned, I'd take his lunch money and laugh at him and do it over and over until they figured it out. Dumb sonavagun cost me 6 FP last time,

I wonder if I can generalize/formalize that?

When a guildie makes a mistake in bidding and causes a vulnerability that can be fixed by both underbidding and overbidding the guild mate fixing the problem should underbid and tell the original bidder their mistake.

Seems to be pretty much what I believe. Does that make sense?

Can you pin numbers/percentages on that SJS?

 

[DeletedUser26965]

I wonder if I can generalize/formalize that?

Oh god please don't, we already had that happen with trading and got "fair trade" as a result now you want the GB equivalent, no way, not me no.

 

[Algona]

Oh god please don't, we already had that happen with trading and got "fair trade" as a result now you want the GB equivalent, no way, not me no.

But, but, but, you're the one wha asked for a percentage and when I try you come back with don't?

"Be careful what you ask for..."

Did I finally tweak your nose?

 

[DeletedUser26965]

But, but, but, you're the one wha asked for a percentage and when I try you come back with don't?

"Be careful what you ask for..."

Did I finally tweak your nose?

I thought when you said formalize you meant like getting this GB fairness concept altogether for a proposal like what happened with goods trading, I don't want to be a part of that sort of thing and I'll turn rabid if somehow it does

 

[DeletedUser]

I thought when you said formalize you meant like getting this GB fairness concept altogether for a proposal like what happened with goods trading, I don't want to be a part of that sort of thing and I'll turn rabid if somehow it does

Don't worry about me doing it. I'm not about to dictate to other guilds what they should do. I will be right there with you, rabidjoeslayerofGBrewards!

 

[DeletedUser26805]

I don't often visit the Forum & I may or may not in the Future, But I read through all these posts & feel obligated to express an opinion:
No, "Sniping" is not bad in or outside the Guild. Why:
1. you just pushed a guildmate's GB to DD in a fraction of the time anticipated. This is never bad
2. When I get 100 FP from GE I need to place them fast (before it affects my FP timer) I'm going to look for a GB that I want the BPs to & try to lock in 1st place. (whether that is inside the guild or outside, tho I prefer to keep FP inside) Failing that I might settle for 2nd or 3rd. (but I do not have all the BPs to that GB, so I need some.) If you object, you are showing faoritism to one guildie over another (not fair)
3. I have several Swap partners. I like to see them get 1st place, so I try to prevent them from competing with one another. When I get down to the last 100 FP on a GB I let my other partners know so that they can take 2nd, - 5th for small investment ( assuming other guildies are not in that position). The only disadvantage to " Sniping" that I see is the inability to get others in guild into those positions for the BPs, FP packets & Medals. Unfortunate, but at least my primary swap partner on that GB got a reward for ~ half the FP that they would have had to give me to get to DD. and then we can start on the next level sooner.
4. So # 3 key is that the GB got to DD in half the time (& with unreimbursed FPs) I'd feel the same if someone did it to me. I got my reward in half the time, ( yes it's less reward, but it cost me less) cause unlikely anyone is going to donate to what I'm working on once I have locked in 1st place. Best they might do is lock in 2nd ( with unreimbursed FP, which would significantly cut down the time to DD) which I have not seen anyone do very often.
5. The primary goal should be to level my Guildmate's (& My) GBs. rewards are nice, but secondary & add a " win" to a " Win-Win" situation.

That is my opinion, & " I'm sticking to it " LOL
Observatory Guild wide BP effort is only exception.

 

[DeletedUser11463]

See, now that's a whole different issue. Guildmates should never snipe each other. That's just common guild courtesy. Goes against the whole idea of being in a guild. If I found out one of my guild members had sniped another, the sniper would be gone posthaste.

The problem is what is sniping. We had a big discussion in our guild on what constitutes it. Some people believe if you put down 10% then you are guaranteed 1st. Others thing 25%, others 40% and others feel lock it or lose.
Then you have the whole issue of trading. Trade 10 FP per day and then lose out when you are at 49% to someone who dumps at the last minute? It's a really crazy problem. Or what about someone doing endless chains. Since your "cost" is nothing, are you guaranteed a spot because you put so many points down but didn't lock 1st?
It's like Fair trade. Everyone has a different opinion.

 

[DeletedUser11463]

Not at all. Being in a guild does not give you a right to top spot on other guildmates GB's. I've never seen a guild with a requirement in such regard. The only possible exception to that is a Obs program but even then one player does not deserve top spot over the other. The idea there is primarily guild goods but secondarily to get players w/o an Obs prints for Obs and if a player with an Obs is taking print spots just so they could get fp's then this would be looked upon as a "bad" thing counter to the betterment of the guild. No way I would expect every member to check with every other member on every other a GB, that's just silly.

And some guilds I've been in, we have everyone donate 5 per week and recommend that players without obs put in a few extra so they get the Obs blueprints. Sort of the opposite of the big players taking 1st - 5th.

 

[DeletedUser28368]

I use the swap threads in my guild forums to level my GB's. Usually, there are 4 or 5 guild mates who are most active there. I don't "snipe" those people, because they are the folks I want to trade with, and collaborate on guild matters. I've set up my city to produce as many FP's as possible, and I usually find myself in the top couple of spots when their buildings level without being calculating. That being said, that's my style of play. It may not be yours.

 

[Freshmeboy]

Big-Bendz sniping is simply finding the mathematically profitable window to insert free fps all at once....I mention 'free' because that is what I do...I GIVE you fps for free. Nobody matches these points, they are given freely for mutual gain. That's my take on it, however, if this is a concern in your guild, I would suggest you follow Mr. Longshanks model of imposing rules within your guild and monitor the GBs accordingly

 

[DeletedUser]

I would suggest you follow Mr. Longshanks model of imposing rules within your guild and monitor the GBs accordingly

Just to clarify, this is not an imposed rule in the 2 guilds that I lead. However, since I weed out players that don't have the guild mentality, it doesn't have to be a stated rule. And, I've never had to address the issue in either guild. Players without that guild mentality show themselves in other ways long before sniping becomes an issue.